So why did the Nationalist Government fold without a fight...

If you had told me in 1985 that these guys would be gone in 10 years, I would never have believed it. What really caused the dramatic demise....Angola, sanctions, generational change,weariness?

I'd be interested in posters' views. One interesting possible influence was the collapse of the Soviet Union and the global approval of Gorbachev. Did de Klerk see himself playing the same  role? Like Gorbachev he got the Nobel Peace Prize 3 years later.

But while the Russians let go of some of their conquests....they kept firm control of the mother land. So the South African move was much more radical. Frankly it is almost unprecedented. One group giving up power without a fight, other than in an established election process....especially when the army was totally loyal to the incumbent group.

Fascinating and perhaps enough time has passed now, to explore the issue....why the sudden capitulation.

Curiously Apartheid spawned 4 Nobel Peace prizes.....Luthuli, Tutu, Mandela and de Klerk. More than any other tragedy. More than WW1, WW2, the Vietnam War, more than the Jewish, Russian and Chinese genocides. More than Isis or the Khmer Rouge.

"One interesting possible influence was the collapse of the Soviet Union "

I think everybody knew that Apartheid was wrong and everyone were hoping to end it without total chaos breaking loose. 

With the fall of the Soviets the fear of  a communist government lessened to an extent, and the white population decided to take their chance to do the right thing...and for the same reason there are still lots of Afrikaners left in South Africa. Some leave for abroad, but many come back. We have our weak points...some of them  difficult to bare , but we are a resilient lot and we contribute  largely  to our community.  Africa would be a lot poorer without us...as it would without the Indian and Malay communities...we all play our part...

We might have given over some power, but we aren't powerless. We are strong and proud and we will never be defeated. 

"I think everybody knew that Apartheid was wrong and everyone were hoping to end it without total chaos breaking loose" .............sums up exactly what I and numerous other Saffers voted for even though some of us lived overseas.

Unfortunately all we actually received in return was total chaos, destruction of everything that all worked so hard to build and unimaginable crime and corruption.

Not what I prayed for but correctly thought would happen.

I salute all the folks who have stayed with the hope of a return to a normal life and I pray that their prayers will soon be answered.

SA and Africa cannot survive without all its people standing together and united for the good of their countries.

Vasbyt.

I was requested to assist with the organization of the referendum in Durban authorizing the President the right to enter into negotiation with the newly unbanned political parties.   At one of the meetings I told FW de Klerk's then wife that there was no reason to worry about the referendum outcome in Durban, where 85% of the voters were in favour oj the change.       

This was preceded with the gradual elimination of the apartheid laws in the country that started years before.   In fact as far back as 1981 public servants in the rank of  Under-Secretary and higher cleared by the Secret Service was summoned to Pretoria to make inputs on the future development of the country and I was one of the representatives who wanted more drastic changes - the first of which was to give Coloureds and Indians representation in Parliament. 

In general the feeling at the time was that the situation was worsening and that many people were sick and tired of paying up to 45% of their income in taxes,   There were also unhappiness about suspected bribery and corruption - even on cabinet level - that was not covered extensively in the media.

In both cases I really had inside information on where the country was going,   However, the deciding factor was the fall of Communism in Russia and Eastern Europe.   Once that happened the die was cast and change became inevitable.   The other part was that the one stumbling block was PW Botha as President.   His removal was the final step needed for drastic changes.

In 1992 there was a meeting in La Montagne in Ballito where representatives from all over KwaZulu-Natal met to discuss the way forward during workshop meetings. I also attended the meeting and it was clear at that stage that change was inevitable if peace is to prevail in future.   

The problems that is now encountered built up slowly after the departure of Mandela - but even though Mbeki had a negative image  in the media - he was really not a bad president.  I met him personally three times - once in the Presidium on Pretoria - and found him friendly and a nice person to deal with.

The country fell apart when Zuma took over and is still not recovering,   However - Draad is in the main correct on what he wrote.             

PW needed to be removed because he was still the face of "white oppression".  It was about the optics. They needed a front man with less baggage. The Broederbond has been using the SABC for years to prime the populace for what was going to happen. This didn't just happen, it was planned for more than a decade....shaping the narrative...it's what they do.

Interesting Vlag, I don't know what really went down, but I do know that it's not what we've been told and some people stole lots of money.

Draad

That story about Operation Hammer has been around for years and there has been no charges laid by anyone about it.   Do you think the Public Protector will not take up the matter if there was any real charges of bribery and corruption involved.   Sounds very much like a conspiracy theory that was spun by elements in opposition to the negotiating with previously banned parties.   

What I do confirm is what you wrote based on the issue giving info as to meetings I attended in the 1980's and 1990's on the issue.   That was info not available to the general public anyway,   The earlier meetings were all classified top secret and was never in the press at all,    Be it as it may the cornerstone apartheid legislation was already removed by 1989 before De Klerk took over. 

Botha had a number of meetings with Mandela while he was still imprisoned - but nothing came out of it.  There even were a number of meetings between Thabo Mbeki and a Stellenbosch professor about which a serial was made afterwards - while Mandela was still in prison.   However, indications were that the Mbeki meetings took place after De Klerk took over. 

Another newspaper story that emerged later was that Mandela was opposed to Thabo Mbeki succeeding him and that he wanted Ramaphosa as President of the ANC  to succeed him.  According to what I heard privately the ANC selected Ramaphosa to succeed Mandela and the latter went to the meeting afterwards and lectured the Congress about Mbeki succeeding him because of a promise he made to Govan Mbeki years earlier that Thabo would succeed Mandela as President of the ANC.

The above is given as an example of how distorted things can be made in the media and in conspiracy theories.                          

It is no secret that foreign  accounts were used by the Government to circumvent sanctions and buying of banned equipment and there was also the agreement with Israel on manufacture of nuclear bombs by both countries,  Anglo American moved their stock exchange usage  to I believe the London Stock Exchange in the 1990's so money would flow out of SA. 

Fuck dimness you are clueless about the negotiations involving Mbeki and that Stellenbosch Prof - it took place in England and when somebody asked about the appointment of a new Finance Minister the local comment was they must ask the Prof about whom it would be because he was     Mbeki closest confidante,   There was a series on that on TV a few years ago about the negotiations. 

As to Mandela nobody really know where his fortune came from - about R20 million came from the Nobel Peace Price and De Klerk got the other half.  Ramphosa got a sweet deal when Anglo and other mining firms offered him shares as part of their Black empowerment program and  he also took over the McDonald Hamburger operation in SA,   He is married to a sister of Motsepe as well - the Motsepe family owned major business in the then Transvaal long before the ANC took over, The family was extremely rich by 1990 already,     There was a story about Motsepe's father driving a top range Jaguar in the 1970's and a policemen took him with the car to the local police station where the local station commander told him the real situation and apologized to Motsepe's father about the arrest.   Even then the Motsepe family was very rich,   The present Motsepe and his sisters invested in many developments and their fortune grew rapidly.        

As to the Ramaphosa story that was in media not so long ago, and there never was any doubt as to the support of Mbeki and that was confirmed by what I told above on the issue.  However, the ANC did vote for Ramaphosa to take over the leadership of the ANC and then Mandela read them the riot act..   There was no dount on my part that the person who told me about the sisue was correct,   

How long must I tell you imbecile that my own real connection was with Zuma since both of us were members of the Albert Luthuli Trust and he got my contact details from them,   I was no  buddy of his at all - the only thing I know was that he could not be trusted at all and in 2007 I told exactly that to the Mayor of KwaDukuza (Stanger) exactly that when ehw as elected as ANC leader.                      

To briefly sum everything up the ANC has been a disaster. 

Mandy was as big a crook as anybody.  They are all self serving, corrupt, incompetent racist twits. 

You must admit that very unfortunately but aptly sums up the ANC! 

Anybody  who enters politics poor and exits with great wealth should be able to explain how that happened. Bernie Sanders is a demagogue, but all his modest fortune can be linked directly to book sales.....that's acceptable.

If I recall correctly the SA treasury always kept Gold Bullion overseas either in England, Argentina and/or Switzerland.

Plus when the ANC were voted in and were negotiating the transfer they insisted that their ANC Manifesto be adopted which meant all monies and gold bullion would be returned to SA as part of the comrades plan.

At that meeting that took place in Pretoria President (de Klerk) and his cabinet stood their ground and told Mandela and his officials that if they insisted on adopting the ANC Manifesto regarding the above that they would move all funds out of reach of the ANC and that the SA economy would fold within 48 hours.

As we now all know the ANC withdrew that document as a result of this warning.

Mandela was the man who forced the issue with the ANC  to withdraw the proposal (as was confirmed by the ANC lawyer representing them at the talks) but with many unhappy comrades in attendance. 

As Mandela knew without money the ANC would not be able to govern and the comrades would have burnt the country to the ground.

Cannot recall the lawyers name (White Jewish lawyer) but he was earlier injured by someone who planted a bomb either at his house or office in JHB,

The issue really is who got all that money and Bullion?

Not me unfortunately.

Unfortunately at present only the Republican members of Congress are held to this ethical standard.

It would be great if the members of Congress declared their wealth at the time that they are elected and update that info each and every year that they hold office including shares/options and funds earned/granted each year.

Plus holdings in companies that they are involved in prior to being elected.

Congress sure has quite a few folks making a ton of money.

Often wondered how and why..................

So far I'm getting why the politicians had an incentive to be change agents. What I'm still not getting is why the Afrikaner people were okay going from one destructive extreme to total democracy with no checks and balances.

You can argue that was the right thing to do....but people usually have a sense of self protection. This was the biggest leap into the political void ever, without a chute. And bad as it is , it could have been much worse.

The lawyers name you forgot is Albie Sachs - he became a Jughe in the Cosntitutional Court - buyt retired after his appointment period transpired,     

We were worn down. Most people were also apologetic about the ugly side of apartheid but little did the liberal element of the white ignorant know that what happens in liberation of drift wood, parasites and the common lot. All these things had repetition in history.  Our guilt of bad happenings let us accept the bull-dust of the liberal world, the driftwood, flotsam, jetsam and driftwood scum and the impracticable idealist sentiment that had not wisdom to learn that Africa was too primitive for total emancipation.

De Klerk simply lost his knackers and so did the white populace of SA. The commies simply won...handed everything over and our country simply will sink ...not as quickly as as the northern neighbours because of our white size but gradually as the dirty octopus of African looting and sucking the economy dry. Yes, a great country is going to die, not immediately but gradually, there has been no progress since 1994.

Thanks CM.

The biggest downside of this mess was the ANC insisted on having their "Army" top brass integrated into the SADF and the Nats agreeing to that demand.

Two issues arose from that agreement or sell out and the military was kept in the dark.

First, the top military comrades who were not military officers but "Bush Commanders" were designated as Generals and assumed command on day #1 with combined regular troops and "Bushies" or terrorists integrated into the lower ranks and serving in the same divisions.

Second, the Airborne Division was placed under an "ANC General" thus preventing any support from them in case of an emergency. Similar to the support this Division provided for Rhodesia when UDI was declared.

That was also true for the Air Force at Waterkloof Air Base and  all infantry troops were restricted to bases.

The top original SADF generals who were fired were replaced by "White Officers" in positions that reported to these ANC  Generals and were mostly desk, supply, training  and recruitment type positions.

In fact I for one am convinced that foreign governments were behind the military planning of the ANC at these meetings and made all these requests to avoid any chance of a military takeover by the SADF top brass.

History now sadly.

Lots of interesting details there, thanks for those lengthy expositions guys. Having left the country in 73 much of this stuff passed me by. But it remains a source of amazement....compare the speed of change with the laborious resistance to Brexit. 

"  mozart

Hall Of Fame

29930 posts 

Anybody  who enters politics poor and exits with great wealth should be able to explain how that happened."

There is, of course, another angle to what you're saying as well. Anybody who enters politics poor and exits with great wealth should be able to explain what happened...BUT.... anybody who enters poor and exits with great wealth, and then find the money fountains drying up, also has a bit of explaining to do, IMO.

What about book deals, Netflix movie/ documentary deals and speech  fees? Payback for services rendered? It's so bloody obvious only fools can deny it.

Rooi: "Hold my beer!"

Sorry DbDraad but Rooi is unable to help he still has his hands in the loot.