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Ukraine

Started by bobbok...56 REPLIES1,784 VIEWS· 27 Dec 2022, 09:47
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CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
31 Dec 2022, 02:23
#41
31 Dec 2022, 02:23#41

This is amazing - the fact is that in the last Parliamentary (Duma) election the Party supporting Putin got 48,5% of the vote and in the last presidential election Putin got only 60% of the vote.   

Tennis players like Medvedev, Rublev and Khasanov openly condemn the war in Public and nothing happened in their cases to them.

The fact is that unlike the propaganda in western media Rusia is effectively at present more democratic than their beloved Ukraine.   

Stav came with a factual statement that 20% of the Russians do not support the War,   However, 80% do.   Why should that be?    The fact is that a third of all Ukrainians has Russian as home language and there are many Russians with families in both Russia and Ukraine.   Oppression of Russians by Ukrainians are not acceptable to the vast majority of Russians.    

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
31 Dec 2022, 02:23
#42
31 Dec 2022, 02:23#42

This is amazing - the fact is that in the last Parliamentary (Duma) election the Party supporting got 48,5% of the vote and in the last presidential election Putin got only 60% of the vote.   

Tennis players like Medvedev, Rublev and Khasanov openly condemn the war in Public and nothing happened in their cases to them.

The fact is that unlike the propaganda in western media Rusia is effectively at present more democratic than their beloved Ukraine.   

Stav came with a factual statement that 20% of the Russians do not support the War,   However, 80% do.   Why should that be?    The fact is that a third of all Ukrainians has Russian as home language and there are many Russians with families in both Russia and Ukraine.   Oppression of Russians by Ukrainians are not acceptable to the vast majority of Russians.    

BO
bobbok...Captain10,129 posts
31 Dec 2022, 04:01
#43
31 Dec 2022, 04:01#43

Why Vladimir Putin has already lost this war

Less than a week into the invasion, the historian Yuval Noah Harari was trenchant about Vladimir Putin’s error in underestimating the Ukrainian people, declaring that “he may win all the battles but still lose the war”. As shocking images of Russian aggression were spreading fast on social media and news platforms the world over, Harari wrote: “Ukraine is a nation with more than a thousand years of history, and Kyiv was already a major metropolis when Moscow was not even a village.” His was a much-needed message of hope and strength at the beginning of a brutal war, and it was read and shared by Guardian readers in their droves. Pieces about the Ukraine war dominated our most-read list, in particular articles that exposed Russian demoralisation at Putin’s reckless gamble

DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
31 Dec 2022, 08:49
#44
31 Dec 2022, 08:49#44

"in particular articles that exposed Russian demoralisation at Putin’s reckless gamble"


I still can't understand why...there's no making sense of it, he must be a madman. 

ST
Stavanger1Pro4,532 posts
31 Dec 2022, 15:32
#45
31 Dec 2022, 15:32#45

I still can't understand why...there's no making sense of it, he must be a madman.

I think there is multiple reasons for it.

He genuinely believes that Russia and Ukraine's are largely the same people and Ukraine shouldn't really have existed as a separate state in the first place.

He like Mike genuinely believes the 2014 revolution in Ukraine was a coup orchestrated by the west.

He believes Ukraine integrating into the west is a a long term threat to him. Ukraine and Russia are deeply interconnected and Ukraine joining the west and potentially prospering more than Russia would cause issues for his regime. The Russia people would see Ukraine doing better and ask why aren't we doing as well?

He believes Russia needs to be restored to great power status and get the respect that comes from being a great power and that Russia as a great power is entitled to a sphere of influence particularly in the countries that made up the old Soviet Union in eastern and central Europe.

His window of opportunity to act was declining. There is potential that Ukraine would eventually be admitted to NATO and if that happened he could longer control Ukraine through coercion. Russia's demography is also declining at a steady tick. The longer he waited the weaker Russia conventional military power would become.

There is also a possibility that he's ill and so felt he needed to act while he was still able to do so, but that's pure speculation.

I'm not saying I subscribe to the following theory , but I've also seen some geo-political analysts like Peter Zeihan suggest this is simply about security and Russia's desire to reclaim all 12 of the major land entry points to the Russian interior and its primary population centers.  Basically for centuries Russia's defensive policy was to basically use these territories as a defensive buffer zone and forward position its troops there because the Russia interior itself is very difficult to defend. When the Soviet Union existed they controlled all 12 of these corridors into Russia but after it fell Russia ended up in control of just one. If his theory is correct that Russia will not stop at Ukraine but look to keep expanding into eastern and central Europe.

But he also thought he would get away with it.

Firstly he didn't think the Ukrainian's would resist. Like he probably genuinely believed most Ukrainian's would welcome the Russian's coming and their was strong pro Russian sentiment across the country, that they hated the Zelensky government, that Zelensky himself given his background was not a serious political leader and likely a puppet of the west that would either prove useless, flee or be killed pretty quickly.

What probably happened here is that Putin fell into the classic dictator trap of all his subordinates and intelligence services becoming yes men and telling him exactly what he wanted to hear. They told him the Ukrainian's wouldn't fight and be largely welcoming of the Russia because they where afraid to tell him otherwise.

If you look at the military force Russia actually invaded with, by historical standards it wasn't very large. I mean Ukraine has a bigger population than France did in World War 1 and the Germans failed invading with over 10 times that number.

In the opening stages of the Russian invasion of Ukraine, the Russian's restrained themselves from doing damage to civilian area's so as not to create any resentment by the local population. But you can see by the way the units operated they where not expecting serious resistance. For example lightly armed units of the Rosgvardiya did thunder runs into major population centers, driving far ahead of the main units and air cover in light vehicles. Rosgvardiya are like the Russian equivalent of the National Guard, they are not front line combat troops but more like occupation and policing units with the combat capabilities of something like a SWAT unit. So when they encountered heavy resistance they where not remotely equipped to deal with it, took heavy casualties and bid a hasty retreat. But even among more regular Russian forces, they where utterly complacent in properly setting up things like their air defense systems hence why the Ukrainians had a lot of success with drones early on in the war.

So in Putin's mind if the Ukrainians where not going fight and the war would be over in a matter of days or weeks there wasn't much the west could do to stop him. No military aid would reach Ukraine before the conflict was over.

Thinking back to his previous aggressive actions and crossing of Western red lines the response from the west was tepid.

So if your Putin and you look at Europe, he would of seen the leverage he had with energy supplies. A Germany that still guilt ridden over WWII bending over backwards to accommodate Russia. Sympathetic voices from some places in Europe, like the main opposition parties in France and Italy as well as the leader of Hungary.  Strained relations within the EU with arguably the most anti Russian state Poland in dispute with the EU over judicial appointments. Strained relations between the EU and UK following Brexit, and a continent that was just trying to recover from the Covid pandemic.

If he looked at America, he would have seen strained relations between Europe and America during the Trump regime, a politically very divided America, in Biden a dothery President who made a complete mess of the withdrawal from Afghanistan and seemed to want to end America's involvement in conflicts not get involved in a new one. America also seem preoccupied with what it perceived as the bigger threat China.

So from his perspective he probably thought, sure the West may sanction Russia harder than 2014 but he built up a big reserve buffer of cash to combat this and it was nothing that Russia couldn't ride out.





SH
sharkbokCaptain23,201 posts
31 Dec 2022, 16:47
#46
31 Dec 2022, 16:47#46

Putin thought he could get away with it, but now he realises it was a mistake.
If he could press the undo button he would, but he can't.

He is just the latest life-appointed dictator whose ego has grown out of control - he is not in touch with reality.

Russia is a gas station to the world, but once green energy improves on a like-for-like basis with dirty energy - Russia is stuffed.
Their economy will all become 4th world stuff. 

Russia's only option is to become imperialistic and take over Ukraine and Belarus - and perhaps other Eastern European countries to maintain any relevance. 

Given the current circumstance on the battlefields, the only option for Putin is that Ukraine accepts a peace agreement - where they cede the land to Russia. This would give Putin some measure of success despite everything that happened. 

However, it is clear that Ukraine is not going to accept this. So Putin is just going to continue the war for as long as he can - even though he probably realises that Russia will not win this war. 

If Putin was to leave Ukraine with nothing (and probably also lose Crimea), Putin will lose power. Once he loses power, the remaining Oligarchs will kill him. It is all or nothing for him. 

Most wars are caused by self-appointed life dictators for economic reasons. As soon as a country like China appoints a dictator for life, Democratic countries should start phasing out trade with them to reduce power. 

Democracies should form a list of preferred trading partners, where the more authoritarian a country is, the less they should be traded with. This will control where power lies, and also make the world more democratic. However, for the West, there should be checks and balances to prevent monopoly owners from acquiring competitors and destroying competition - as this is just capitalist authoritarianism. 

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
31 Dec 2022, 17:14
#47
31 Dec 2022, 17:14#47

Stav 

Do you have actual proof of the above?    The fact is the whole story about the coup has been proven by video info from the US Government - Nuland then under-secretary of state indicated that they have told Ukraine which politician should be the interim President of Ukraine until an election could be held..   If that is not indication who was aiding and abetting the unconstitutional regime change in the USA.   

There is ample evidence of US politician corruption in Ukraine and how US Aid funding was kicked back to US Politicians - they flooded into Ukraine within months of the first aids package to Ukraine be approved and got huge kickbacks in return.   Biden in a video recording even bragged that he forced the Ukraine to fire the attorney-General investigating Burisma - the company in which his son was a board member - after the home and office of the owner of Burisma was searched.   Burisma was an utterly corrupt company anyway.   

There is also another nasty one Zelenskyy's election was funded by an oligarch in Ukraine and he is now a dictator in Ukraine - the same oligarch funded the Asov battalion with its Nazi insignia.    The present regime has taken action to ensure there is a dictatorial Regime in Ukraine.   Dream on - Zelenskyy is the head of the most corrupt Government in the world at present - the US Government provide the taxpayer dollars and the loot is shared between the US and Ukraine crooks.

The myth about the Trump regime is total BS and the lie is constantly repeated by unthinking people.   There were clear signs that Putin was afraid of acting against anybody because Trump would act against him.      The fact is when Biden became President he was an unbalanced fool whose only achievement in foreign relations was to fart before royalty.  He betrayed Germany, Italy, England and the Netherlands in the Afghanistan chaotic withdrawal and the USA allies lost their faith in the USA compliance to treaty agreement.   The worst President ever in the history of the USA - shallow and corrupt as well.

He is totally under control of the media owners and they protect him by censoring news critical of him.   So you must really think the mental deficient idiot is a good president.   He is an obedient puppet though.           

        

  

SH
sharkbokCaptain23,201 posts
31 Dec 2022, 17:17
#48
31 Dec 2022, 17:17#48

DumbMike is backward, and he must have been a member of the AWB.

ST
Stavanger1Pro4,532 posts
31 Dec 2022, 18:09
#49
31 Dec 2022, 18:09#49

Russia could claim Ukraine is building giant mecha spiders that fire lasers from their eyes and Mike would buy it and no doubt claim its part of a plot by the democrats!

BO
bobbok...Captain10,129 posts
31 Dec 2022, 19:59
#50
31 Dec 2022, 19:59#50

.https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/picture/2022/dec/28/ben-jennings-on-a-new-year-for-ukraine-cartoon

w year for Ukraine – cartoon

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
01 Jan 2023, 18:06
#51
01 Jan 2023, 18:06#51

Are all the lefties on site read The Guardian?   To quote from them is to get BS published on site.       

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
01 Jan 2023, 19:02
#52
01 Jan 2023, 19:02#52

Stav and  SB

You write long stories of total BS on site.   And cannot prove anything you write.    Trump was unhappy with the EU countries and with reason.   They underpaid NATO and wanted the USA to cover the costs of NATO and he forced them to comply with their treaty obligations.   They wanted to charge import duties on US exports to Europe and resented it when he returned the compliment.   Some of the EU politicians hated him because he was threatening their support base by positive policies and implementation.    That hatred came out in the newspapers which you believe in.

If ever there were brainwashed people - you are top examples on site.       

 

SH
sharkbokCaptain23,201 posts
01 Jan 2023, 19:16
#53
01 Jan 2023, 19:16#53

Dumb Mike needs to be taken to the vet and put down. He is utterly irrelevant in the 21st century, he adds no value

DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
01 Jan 2023, 19:32
#54
01 Jan 2023, 19:32#54

What a mean-spirited bully you are Snarkhole...shame on you.

AJ
AJHPro3,183 posts
02 Jan 2023, 20:36
#55
02 Jan 2023, 20:36#55

No war is good and the people who always end up suffering are the people who are not political.

But aside from that the issue in Ukraine is not dire for the politicians or pressing.

Take for example the Ukraine President and his wife's recent trip to Washington to support Bidens 1.7 trillion dollar scheme and to beg for more aid (notice it was money he wanted) and after departing from the USA they stopped in France.

While in Paris his wife had the opportunity to go shopping and blow $40, 000 (USA).

Question is was this an advance to her husband for supporting the Biden scheme or did her husband earn this money whilst he was doing the comedian trick prior to the President of Ukraine post he now holds.

What about the war back home......you would think that the war would be top priority not shopping in Paris.

Wonder how much he is worth right now!

More cash to follow for sure.

ST
Stavanger1Pro4,532 posts
03 Jan 2023, 02:21
#56
03 Jan 2023, 02:21#56

Take for example the Ukraine President and his wife's recent trip to Washington to support Bidens 1.7 trillion dollar scheme and to beg for more aid (notice it was money he wanted) and after departing from the USA they stopped in France.

While in Paris his wife had the opportunity to go shopping and blow $40, 000 (USA).

What absolute bilge water.

DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
03 Jan 2023, 07:47
#57
03 Jan 2023, 07:47#57

"While the claim about Zelenska was picked up by other social media users including conservative voices such as the Gateway Pundit, and hoax news sites, its provenance appears to be extremely murky and lacking in credibility, Newsweek Fact Check found.

Several of the tweets, including those in English and Russian, appeared to feature an image of a news article detailing the "story" of the $40,000 spend.

While the source is not cited in those tweets, Newsweek found that the screenshotted article, titled "Zelensky's Wife Spent $40,000 Shopping in Paris While Demanding US Give Ukraine Money," appeared on known hoax news site NewsPunch, widely reported to have disseminated misinformation online.

NewsPunch, in turn, does not cite sources for the claim other than an embedded tweet by SGM World News."


This questions the credibility of the s tory, but you can't call this a debunk. 

— END OF THREAD —

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