Zelenskyy raises flag in Izium

https://news.sky.com/story/zelenskyy-tells-ukraine-that-full-security-is-being-restored-across-nation-upon-visit-to-recaptured-izium-12696957

Great news for those that believe in Democracy over authoritarianism. 

Anyone else notice Seb the "worlds greatest fighters" putin arse wipe has been strangely absent since they got their ass handed to them on a plate.

So much egg on his face he could feed the russian army for a month bwahahahah

Another major conquest and the Russian soldiers are surrendering in their tens of thousands, over 100 000 were killed in Ukraine and the Russians are fleeing from Ukraine.    .   

Apparently the Russia media made the recent mistake of releasing information on their national public broadcast, that they have suffered huge numbers of deaths and casualties...

The true number may eventually come out, but don't bank on it, Russia will never want the world to know just how bad they got beaten in this war

The fact that the Russian soldiers no longer even trust their superiors anymore, never mind believe in the war itself, it very evident now.....

What a complete waste of lives on both sides.... incredibly sad 

Watching the news this morning...a reporter was investigating an underground basement where Russian soldiers had made a basecamp for themselves, before deserting their position because of the advancing Ukranian soldiers 

On the wall was one attempt to spell a single word in English....."Sori"

A c ivilized country gone to $h!t...

Plum

It is very hard to distinguish between real news and propaganda on this case.   That is why I m cynical when ot comes to Ukraine claims of victory.   The tow involved is no city - it is only slightly larger than Riversdale and much smaller than George and even Mossel Bay.    I would like to see a peace settlement in Ukraine - but that seems to eb impossible.   

 "I would like to see a peace settlement in Ukraine"

Maybe Russia will start seriously pushing for this now.....

Wouldn't surprise me..

One battle doesn't win a war, Ukraine won this round is all.

Hopefully it does bring about a stop to this but I doubt it

Then there's dumPlumdum getting all 'philosophically existentialistic' while Draad shows us the reality.   

It would be nice if the west backs Ukraine to march on Moscow ... and they take Putin captive to stand trial for his war crimes.

That would be a good ending to this nightmare.

I think it is not Putin to be for epace negotiations - his conditions for peace is clear-

*    Compliance with the 1990 agreement that NATO will not extend their NATO membership of the new countries emerging from the USSR - which NATO has not complied with; and

*    Compliance with the Minsk Agreement of 2015.

The problem is that some major EU countries support peace on the above basis - but the USA is undermining both conditions and in view of the upcoming elections is pushing for a proxy war.  in Ukraine.   Due to bribery always present in USA assistance to Ukraine   and from kickbacks by the Arms Industry, the chances of a peace agreement  under the present  Biden regime are non-existent.   

There's existential and then there's this Natural Gas futures chart...

Here we have DumbMike stating  Putin's demands... 

and... Looking for ways to tie anything that goes wrong in the world to America...

Lol.  .... dPlumd, left speechless & its back to the charts. Stop mixing.

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Speechless?

No dumbass, I'm just showing you numbers, which have nothing to do with being existential and don't require further explanation.

Seems you require words, pictures and some patience.

S B

Are you really that stupid.   The agreement on NATO membership dates from 1990 - long before Putin was in sight.    The second agreement was negotiated and agreed to by  the German, French, Ukraine and Russian Governments.   All Putin insisted on was implementation fo the two agreements.     When Macron tried in March the negotiation process was destroyed by Biden declaring that Putin should be removed from power by outside intervention.    The Turks took over the negotiation program and that was sabotaged by the Biden Administration as well.

When Blinken visited SA recently - he was lectured on the USA inciting and promoting war and sabotaging peace negotiation.

By the way after that rebuff Biden invited Ramaphosa to the WH for a meeting on Friday,   Two of the major crooks in Government meeting to discuss what?    The only thing would be that Biden will pass some of his backhanders to Ramaphosa.   One can expect nothing bar criminality from the two chancers concerned.                    

No one joined NATO until Putin's invasions, but now other European countries have joined because of Putin.

Surely the agreement would have considered an invasion by Russia as a breach of the contract. Any agreement was void when Putin invaded Ukraine. 

NATO egged on by the Democrats to get Ukraine to become a NATO member.   That not only was a breach of the 1990 agreement, but the reason for the breach was that VATO wants to get control of the Crimea military facilities.   That was one of the major reasons for the Russian attack.   As pr normal you do not know anything about everything.    The agreement was in fact breached when Estonia, Lithuania  and Latvia - who were previously part of the USSR joined NATO.

The Ukraine is a mess and has always been a corrupt mess - that would be a great threat to Russians and especially those living in Ukraine - of whom thousands were murdered by the Asov battalion of the Ukraine army in the period between 2016 and 2022.   The final decision was when the Ukraine Government arrested all Russian speaking members of the Ukraine Parliament.

Unfortunately, Russia have a lot more men, will and money to chuck at the war.

@Plum

Think you are wrong on all 3 accounts.

Yes Russia has a larger population than Ukraine and could potentially field a far larger army but since they have not declared a state of war, something Putin seems extremely reluctant to do conscription can't be used, something the Ukrainians started months ago. As a result Ukraine currently has a manpower advantage.

As for will, I've no idea how after all that's gone on since the course of the war that you can say Russia has greater will power than Ukraine.  Compare the Ukrainian who's surrendered in Mariupol who held out for weeks under siege before surrendering and the Russian rout around Kharkiv that occurred in just a couple of days.

As for money, Ukraine's war economy is being bank rolled by the west which have far greater economic resources than Russia.

It’s easy to think of Russia as a bully, but bullies aren’t normally motivated by what they perceive to be existential threats.

Russia, for better or worse, see NATOS advance as exactly that. So don’t be surprised if one bloody nose doesn’t sap their will to continue.

The aggressor always has an excuse for his actions. But lets say Putin see's NATO's expansion as an existential threat, you can be damn sure Ukraine see's Russia's invasion of it as an existential threat and a far more imminent and clear cut one than NATO expansion is seen to the the Russian people. Don't be surprised if Ukraine can endure as much as Russia can throw at them.

"Don't be surprised if Ukraine can endure as much as Russia can throw at them."

They will... their current attitude, behaviour and approach to this stupid war has already shown it... and long may it continue

I just hope Putin does not try anything nuclear....... he may get desperate to save face or Russia's military "reputation"

I doubt he would ever be allowed to do it, or even be supported to do it..... but that is always a scary outside option.

a) I said they had "more will" not more will than Ukraine.

b) Russia more/enough money to drag this war on for ages...not more money than Ukraine's current sponsors.

c) Motivations vary and are correlated with one's will to sacrifice and fight. Both sides have clear and deep motivations with the result that this war will drag on. 

And that is the point. The more it drags on the worse for everybody involved.

I see Sweden is now threatening charges against people consuming too much energy. I also see that Germany is facing a power crisis because people are stocking up on electric heaters to cover the gas shortages/prices.

Now go back to what to was I telling you a month ago about how Ukraine will be forced to the negotiating table. Slowly, we'll begin to see slimy politicians that couldn't wait to virtue signal for Ukraine, start to turn their backs because continuing to support Ukraine means they might lose their seats in government.

TLDR I was not wrong on any points. Your interpretation is where the problem is.

@Plum

a) well my first point was on manpower which you didn't address.

But as for having more will, more will than who then? There is no sign of the West dropping its support for Ukraine anytime soon, especially now that Ukraine showed its capable of recapturing its territory. And with that support comes the money to fight.

c) Its pretty clear that the the Russian soldiers on the ground are no where near as motivated as Putin is or the Ukrainians fighting them.

And that is the point. The more it drags on the worse for everybody involved.

Wars are never good for anyone, that's why Putin was so stupid in starting this one.

I see Sweden is now threatening charges against people consuming too much energy. I also see that Germany is facing a power crisis because people are stocking up on electric heaters to cover the gas shortages/prices.

That doesn't mean Sweden and Germany will stop supporting Ukraine. Its possible that it could turn the public against supporting the war but its probably just as likely at this point that they will blame Russia for it more than their own governments.

Now go back to what to was I telling you a month ago about how Ukraine will be forced to the negotiating table. Slowly, we'll begin to see slimy politicians that couldn't wait to virtue signal for Ukraine, start to turn their backs because continuing to support Ukraine means they might lose their seats in government.

"But as for having more will, more will than who then"

Is there water in the tank? Yes, there is more water in the tank.

So i guess the answer to your question...more than zero. Enough to continue the war.

Here is one of many articles that confirm the waning support from the EU for the Ukraine war.

Sure there are upticks of support reminiscent of what it was in April this year, but those spikes are fewer and less aggressive as each month passes.

Ukraine themselves have spoken about the waning support from the West and have used the narrative of the more support they receive the quicker they could end the war. Meaning they know that they're on a time schedule, one that Russia isn't as bound to. Ukraine understands that they can't win a prolonged war because support will all but vanish.  And if support goes away, which it's looking like it will over time, then Ukraine will be forced to the negotiating table. 

I'm not saying any of this is good or that I want Ukraine to hand over land to Russia. I'm just telling you what I see happening.

But let's test our ideas.

I've laid out exactly how I see Russia getting what they want in the end. It's not a difficult path to follow.

Now you lay out how you see Ukraine getting what they want.

Which of the two is more fanciful?

But let's test our ideas.

I've laid out exactly how I see Russia getting what they want in the end. It's not a difficult path to follow.

Can you define what Russian wants first?

Now you lay out how you see Ukraine getting what they want.

Which of the two is more fanciful?

They take Kherson or inflict another (or more than one) battlefield defeat on Russia of comparable size to what they just achieved around Kharkiv. Reinforcing the idea to the west that they can win with enough equipment and possible precipitating a wide scale collapse of Russian forces in Ukraine.

That may be fanciful. It may not. The Ukrainians might achieve some more success but on a smaller scale. Time will tell.

Are you arguing for what you'd like to happen or how you actually think things will play out?

From what I've seen, the mighty Russian army isn't as mighty as they may think.

They're on the back foot and it seems as if their will to continue has deserted them.

How embarrassing. A supposed super power running away with it's tail firmly tucked between its legs.

Never saw that coming. 

Plum, it sounds as though you're in favour of the Russian invasion? 

How come?

Nevertheless yesterday, the war criminal Putin said that its all about liberating Ukraine.

Sorry Plum ... my bad ... wasnt stirring anything ... I regard you as a thinking man and thought you might have an interesting ... different stance on this war to what we see in the media.

Theres always 2 sides to a story ... 

Their seems to be a double standard. One side requires very little justification to act, while the other side has to have it decided for them what is or isn’t an existential threat and if action against the threat is justified.

…all the while, the same people acting as judge and jury, actively work to worsen the threat that Russia perceives.

Well both the West in the past and Russia on this occasion have acted with very little justification. Neither Afghanistan or Iraq here an existential threat to the the US/West nor was Ukraine a threat to Russia. A difference is that Russia as a state or with its allied countries wasn't strong enough to stop US/Western actions in Afghanistan or Iraq, but at the same time really didn't care that much to even try. However in invading Ukraine they have picked a fight with a democratic country that expressed a desire to align itself with the West, or a de-facto ally of the West and the West does have the means to do something about it.

It’s funny to think that people claim the Ukraine can sign up to Nato and if they want to have ICBS along Russia’s border then they are independent and should be allowed to do that.

It's funny to think that people thought Ukraine had any prospect of joining NATO anytime soon. I assume when you say ICBS you mean ICBM's. The whole point of ICBM's is that you can fire them at enemies continents away, you don't need them to be in Ukraine for them to be a threat. Potentially NATO could station shorter range missiles in Ukraine to strike Russian targets faster but knowing how Russia would have perceived such a move absolutely no one in the West or NATO ever suggested doing that.

From Russia’s perspective, they saw how Iraq was invaded, with consent from the UN, based on lies. Not mistakes, straight-up lies. I have it on first hand account WMD narrative was pre-meditated and had a clear goal in mind regardless of what the investigations showed. A pretext was thought up and hundreds of thousands of people were destroyed…not even mentioning the after effects if that war.

And then they(Russia) are expected to accept the same perpetrators of those lies and the invasion that followed, to be trusted with nuclear weapons on the Russian border?

There has never been any discussion about Ukraine hosting nuclear weapons if it joined NATO. No preexisting member state of NATO bordering Russia has nuclear weapons.  Russia on the other hand is the country with nukes on the border of NATO states right now.

It’s very fucking obvious that Russia could never invade Europe en masse. They simply don’t have the manpower, technology or resources to do that. Russia were never a military threat to Nato and the only real threat they pose is that of mutual destruction. Which will remain the threat regardless of how many members Nato has. It’s doesn’t take a genius economist or strategist to understand this simple underlying truth.

It's not been a question of Russia invading Europe en masse since the fall of the Soviet Union. Its a question of NATO offering protection to smaller Eastern Europe states to stop them being picked off individually by Russia. The fact that Russia is no threat militarily to NATO is the reason countries want to join it. It doesn't take a genius to understand that.

Think of it like this. I walk into a room. I have enough explosives in my brief case to blow up a square 100 mile radius. There are a hundred other people in the room already and i’d never beat all of them in a fist fight. How does adding more people to the 100 in the room help anyone?

Think of it like this. You walked into a room with your explosives. There is one other person half your size in it, you should have no problem beating him in a fist fight so the explosives are not needed. The other person knows he will likely not win the fist fight so wants to enter another room with 100 other people in it and whom have the same same amount of explosive you have. If he gets into that room he knows that you know you can't beat them all in a fist fight and if you use your explosives they will use theirs as well ensuring your own destruction, this is the purpose of the other room and the reason why everyone is in it. Knowing that you can't win the fist fight and using explosives will lead to your own destruction you're deterred from attacking any of them in the first place...unless you're suicidal.

So, why would the West be aiming to bring Ukraine into the fold?

Because its a democratic country that's expressed an interest in joining the fold and that there is strength in numbers. It also happens to by the morally right thing to do in this case, preventing a democratic country failing to authoritarianism.

Perhaps there some good reasons but i’m guessing that Russia also has good reason for not wanting that to happen?

Yes the Russian reason being it would prevent them from gaining control over Ukraine.

None of it should ever have happened. The west should have been promoting a Ukraine/Russia partnerships in the region. With an larger partnership between Russia, Eastern and Western Europe, promoting a super secure Europe and West Asia.

Perhaps if Russia wanted partnership with Ukraine is should not have pressured Ukraine into dropping the EU association agreement, nor seized a major chunk of Ukrainian territory or provided backing and arms too secessionist forces in Ukraine?

As for partnerships with Europe, perhaps Russia should not have carried out assassinations using biological weapons in European states, repeatedly violated European countries territorial sovereignty or engage/facilitate cyber attacks against these same countries.

But no…they thought “Russia has an economy similar to Italy’s, they’ll do what we say and accept what we offer.”

The mistakes is Russia thinks its stronger than it really is, that it's still a great power and that the West would be cowed into accepting what it did.

Russia said no.

And look what it got them.

Now the world is in an energy crisis, inflation is crazy and there is no end in sight for the war…and people are dying in a war better diplomacy could have saved.

When nearly all the Russian demands are based on lies, diplomacy is rather difficult.

So, i’m not for the war at all. But i refuse to put all the blame for it on Russia. It’s simply not fair.

I understand the desire to be balanced and to hear both sides of the story but in this case Russia is overwhelmingly to blame for this mess.

How can a country like Russia have legitimate claims of existential threats to its existence when they have more nuclear weapons than the whole world (excluding America).  

NATO is only an existential threat to Russia, because it has prevented Russia from trying to conquer more countries. 

Whoever is Russia's latest Dr Evil, fears NATO's retaliation, not it provoking war with Russia.

Democracy is more of a threat to the KGB leadership of Russia.
Russians were seeing Ukraine becoming more Democratic and becoming more aligned with the direction of Europe. Russians may have been starting to think it is time to get rid of the KGB and become more Democratic. That is an existential threat to Putins KGB.