An inspiring post match interview - Tribute to Ackermann

Gosh do you believe Einstein has to be alive for his thoughts to be accessible? Hahaha And how about religion in Iraq, Iran and Saudi Arabia? Decling? Of course not, religion is declining in Western countries. Whether that's a good thing remains to be seen.

 Most scientists dont believe in god .If Einstein and Newton had been bought up in different eras they would most likely not belie ve either.CF bro dont get me wrong I dont believe in any religion of any description ,but I can respect that others do so long as they dont go all Beengod on me !

Actually not true....51% of scientists in America believe on god or a higher power, according to the Pew study. In countries like India it's well over half....and ask the scientists on their death beds and I bet the number will be higher yet. .. Existence is a mystery so deep that even science has few answers.

 No problem Wardad, everyone is entitled to believe what they want  and to a certain extent say what they want. I am happy for Hakwa and the rest to air their views but they shouldn't get upset when people speak out in opposition to what they believe especially when the scientific facts all point to a higher power of any sort not existing.
Mozart, dont you find it strange that religion is only growing in places where there is no free speech and many people are uneducated. In those countries I would be put to death for voicing my views, my daughters would be denied an education and would be treated as 2nd class citizens. All in the name of some backwards old men that like to retain power over other people.They are like looking at western countries in the middle ages. If this is what religion brings to the world you can shove it where the sun doesn't shine. 

 Scoentists? do they study scones

 Why did you pick American Scientists, could it be because America has one of the highest beliefs in a christian god in the western world. What about all the scientists in the Europe where Atheism dominates?

 I presume you are refering to this
A survey of scientists who are members of the American Association for the Advancement of Science, conducted by the Pew Research Center for the People & the Press in May and June 2009, finds that members of this group are, on the whole, much less religious than the general public.1 Indeed, the survey shows that scientists are roughly half as likely as the general public to believe in God or a higher power. According to the poll, just over half of scientists (51%) believe in some form of deity or higher power; specifically, 33% of scientists say they believe in God, while 18% believe in a universal spirit or higher power. By contrast, 95% of Americans believe in some form of deity or higher power
Reads very differently to what you stated when you take more of the article into account, it clearly says 31% believe in god. Nothing like fudging the truth ah Mozart

 Any figures to back up your claim that more Scientists convert on their death bed or you just guessing?

I can't find any comparable European studies....if you can please let us know. There appear to be two definitive studies....the Pew sStudy of American scientists which I quoted, and the Rice study of global scientists which has this conclusion: .. The study's results challenge longstanding assumptions about the science-faith interface. While it is commonly assumed that most scientists are atheists, the global perspective resulting from the study shows that this is simply not the case. "More than half of scientists in India, Italy, Taiwan and Turkey self-identify as religious," Ecklund said. "And it's striking that approximately twice as many 'convinced atheists' exist in the general population of Hong Kong, for example, (55 percent) compared with the scientific community in this region (26 percent)." ... Read more at: https://phys.org/news/2015-12-worldwide-survey-religion-science-scientists.html#jCp .. Inconvenient facts!

Ah but going back to the Pew Survey only 41% of scientists don't believe in either god or some higher power. Fudge that if you can.....game, set and match.

 I am not fudging anything, you elected to post a tiny part of the statement to emphasis your side. It reads differently when taken into context the rest of the statement.
I also didn't state you lied or anything just omitting some facts to try to improve your side  of the argument. Game set and match
When you take into account 95% of Joe Blows believe in a god or higher power in America it highlights that scientists are well below the national average there. This reinforces the fact the more intelligent people are the less likely they are to believe in a god.Please note I said less likely, religion unfortunatly is not just limited to the mentally impaired.

"Scoentists? do they study scones?"
LMAO!
Schplottt!

On another thread it was argued that Gatlin should have been booted out of athletics for life. Here we have Johan Ackerman praised to high heaven.....

 So Europe is the possible atheists heaven,well,some countries there are moving fast towards IslamI have nothing against them,same as with most atheists ,just the radicals spoil it all.
Rather try North Korea,the last true Atheist State ,atheist heaven.haha,but watch out you have to worship  the King Kim or risk being put in the pot.

How do you know what % of people in North Korea are Athiest. Have you been, have you done a poll. If you could would you believe what the people actually say.For all you know the population could believe Kim Jong-un is a god, he has one advantage over your one in that we at least kniow he exists.
Why didn't you pick Vietnam, 81% of the population is Athiest.
Wasn't that long ago if you didn't believe in your god you were tortured and killed by loving christians so really you have more in common with North Korea than us Athiests.Why dont you pop over there with a suitcase of bibles and a cross in your hand. I am sure your god will protect you and let you save the heathens from the pits of hell. Oh thats right he doesn't care that all those people in North Korea have no hope of knowing your god and since he cant actually do anything they are doomed to the pits of hell as they will die non believers. For a god your bloke is rather pathetic as he cant seem to do anything at all.

 The rise in Islam in Europe is caused by immigration. The educated residents are not turning to Islam. That is like me sending 20 million Athiest to America and claiming Christianity has fallen off a cliff. Sure it would skew the figures to give the perception that there has been a massive decline in religeous people but you and I know that it doesn't show the true % of decline in religion amongst its native people.  
"I have nothing against them,same as with most atheists ,just the radicals spoil it all."
Same goes for Christian radicals spewing forth hatred for people that don't conform to their way of thinking.  America is full of such people that are as dangerous to the free world as the nut bars blowing themselves up just to get some pussy which they cant get in this world. 

Albert Einstein's religious views have been widely studied and often misunderstood. Einstein stated that he believed in the pantheistic. God of Baruch Spinoza. He did not believe in a personal God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings, a view which he described as naïve.

Religious and philosophical views of Albert Einstein - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_and_philosophical_views_of_Albert_Einstein

Einstein was not an atheist, at least until the existence of a God can be disproven. 
However, Einstein "like most scientist's" do not believe in the religious creationist view of the universe. 
The common notion in science is that the universe was created by the big bang theory/ i.e- gravity.
Einstein said that there may well be a God, or an afterlife- however it is beyond his comprehension. I think this pretty much sums up many scientists viewpoints. Not necessarily atheists, but certainly not religious in their beliefs. Many/Most believe religion is a man made phenomena.  
Religious scientists are rare, and they have had little to no impact on the field of science. They are more suited to Sunday school. 
I think we have 3 groups
1. Religion/Creationist view of the Universe.2. Atheists3. People who believe in the possibility of an afterlife or God- but this is certainly not the hypocrite religions like Christianity, Muslim etc, etc.
Most scientists fall into the 2nd and 3rd group. 

So 51% of scientists in the USA are having little to no impact on the field of science....interesting. The truth is this appeal to scientists as the arbiters is nonsense. As Einstein said these things are beyond his tools. .. I don't approve when religious people threaten non believers with damnation. But nor do I find it very attractive when rabidly anti religious people try to belittle those who believe. What's wrong with a bit of tolerance? Unfortunately this subject always seems to create a mission one way or the other.. .. We are left with the amazing, incredibly improbable fact of our own existence.....enjoy it while you can.

I dont ever recall seeing stats that say 51% of scientists are religious.
This is a decent article that covers Science and religion.http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2017/april-web-only/march-for-science-isnt-anti-religion-just-like-most-scienti.html

The conclusion is that most scientists (90%+) do not believe in creationism or religion.
However- many do aspire to be spiritual- which is to try be good people. To do not rule out the possibility of an afterlife- but they are certainly not creationists. 
There are 3 categories, not 2. When looking at it like this, then most scientists are not religious. 
I share the third view (and certainly would not want to be lumped with religious or atheists groups). 

The benchmark study is the Pew study which has 41% of scientists as atheist.....the rest are believers or agnostics. That's the best data there is.

I expect the believer's category is very small. (say under 10%)
Agnostic is probably closer to the third viewpoint. (I.e. not a personal God or religion). 
They may hope for an afterlife- but they are certainly not attending church sessions, reborn again etc, etc. They are certainly not creationists. 

Actually 33% believe in a conventional God, 18% believe in some kind of universal spirit, and 7% are agnostic.

No, the real issue here is that many Young Earth Creationists and confirmed idiots and charlatans like Carl Baugh, Kent Hovind and Ken Ham think that their laughably stupid pseudoscience qualifies them as scientists so it swells the numbers . . . if not the overall IQ!.
Once again, the facts show that the more stupid a person is, the more likely he is to be religious. 
Just look at Baboon-ou for the all time classic example.
Case closed.

What facts, your graph where the 4 highest IQ scores came from the less than 30% atheist group....LMAOFY!

http://www.pewforum.org/2009/11/05/scientists-and-belief/
It says 
-  41% are atheists (believe in neither God, or some type of spirit)

-   33% of scientists believe in God.
-   18% of scientists believe in a higher power (spirituality, nature, etc). Not a personal God. 

- 7% would not comment
I read this as less than a third of scientists believe in God.I expect that if research was conducted that only included successful scientists, then the % that believe in God would be smaller. 
I would be interested in reviewing the scientific findings of "scientists" that believe in Creationism- instead of the Big Bang Theory. 

Well read it any way you like. Speculate any way you like.....my guess is the correlation would be at least as strong between rich and poor, with a much higher percentage of poor people believing in God. Same would be true for rich nations and poor nations....your beliefs are driven far more by your emotions than your intellect. And your emotions are heavily impacted by your circumstances. This notion of a higher set of beings who should determine things is a joke.....they don't have a clue about the nature of existence, just like the rest of the population. .. As for the Pew Study, less than half of scientists are confirmed atheists....just accept the facts.

 Well, Einstein was a atheist untill his understanding of the universe ans science forced him to accept the existance of a "creator" or supreme being. He did not believe in a personal God though.Tesla was sort of religious and Newton was an Christian and a avid escathologist....three of the fathers of modern science and probably the major 3.  

I have quoted the exact numbers from a survey that you provided. 
33% believe in God. (therefore religion)
The other two-thirds do not.You are clearly believing what you want to believe. 
This is why religious people will always make bad scientists. You can't objectively accept the facts of the survey you have provided yourself . 
 

@Ddraad,
You have misquoted Einstein. 
He accepts the possibility of a God- he does not believe a God certainly exists. He was certainly not going to Church. 
Like other scientists, he suggested there may be an afterlife or God - but he rejected Christianity and other personal religions as childish pastimes. 

 I said that he did not believe in a personal God. In religious terms, that means that he did not believe in a god humans can interact with. He believed in an entity or a force responsible for the Big Bang and the order in the universe....not a man in the clouds...or the God you believe does not exist.

Science and Einstein are about proving reality. If something can't be proven or disproven, then it remains a possibility. 
He is not going to start believing in anything he can't prove. 

Christians are called to live in the example set by Jesus, Not to be Bible bashers.  
Answers should be offered with respect when asked & opinions respected.
Problem is that either side holds an extreme viewpoint in the others eyes... debate fails after a few posts. There are way to many questions that neither side can not fully answer or rationalize so it boils down to personal experience and relationship. It is sad how confrontational these posts become, but that may just be the nature of this site.I believe in the one God and he loves all 100% of us irrespective of our view of him. I also believe that there will be a time we all answer for our words and deeds. I feel  honoured to know and love him.     
The arguing about %, IQ, country is not going to make a Jot of difference at the end of the day.       

 Shark, I'm not trying to debate this with you, not am I trying to convince you of something. I'm trying to briefly explain how I understand some of the concepts. It's impossible to give proof of something non-physical or spiritual. I can understand your POV and respect it. I ask for the same respect. I am fine without the understanding. You were respectful/ accommodating  enough the one time I asked for it and I appreciate that. This is much a much too complicated subject to discuss incidentally on a rugby board, so I won't take it any further.

Shark if you can explain to me what the difference is between an 'universal spirit or higher power"' and a God I'd concede your point. The fact is you said less than 10% of scientists believe in a God. The right number from the Pew study is at least 33%, although I would add those who believe in a higher power, and half of those who don't know.....probably over 50%. .. But if it makes you happy to believe 10% be my guest. And who said I'm a religious person.....I just don't tolerate bigotry very well. And you are certainly a bigot.

@Mozart I have explained the differences here between God vs believing in Good earlier, but include it again below. 
Religion likes to create 2 categories (Atheists, or Believers).It is more like 3 categories of thought.....

sharkbok
 
Status: Rugby Legend 
Posts: 6488RE: An inspiring post match interview - Tribute to Ackermann
August 09, 2017, 13:04:50

I think we have 3 groups
1. Religion/Creationist view of the Universe.2. Atheists3. People who believe in the possibility of an afterlife or God, Nature etc - but this is certainly not the hypocrite religions like Christianity, Muslim etc, etc.
Most scientists fall into the 2nd and 3rd group.

 Shark, almost. I would simplify and say:
1. There is a God.2. There is no God.3. There might or might not be a god/God's.. .It's not possible to know either way.
No. 3 is Agnostics and probably the most logical stance.Afterlife is a whole different kettle of fish. You can believe in a god without believing in an afterlife...and vice versa I suppose. I believe Einstein believed in the concept of something godlike, but I know he definitely did not believe in an afterlife. His concept of "God" was that something outside of science that was needed to make science work...to make the Big Bang work.

@Draard agreed the big bang theory needs a catalyst to happen. It is the one missing piece that can't be explained(yet) - and therefore "possibly" by some form of God or afterlife. 

 GOD talks to Job after he was at the end of tether and was about to have a whinge to GOD about how unfair GOD was and how mistreated he was: 
Job 38:4-7New International Version (NIV)

4“Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
    Tell me, if you understand.
5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
    Who stretched a measuring line across it?
6 On what were its footings set,
    or who laid its cornerstone—
7 while the morning stars sang together
    and all the angels[a] shouted for joy?

New International Version or not, the salient point is that those words were written when people still believed the earth was flat.