An inspiring post match interview - Tribute to Ackermann

 New International version?
Someone been re writting the bible again with another interpretation of older interpretations so not actually gods words but a book by a bunch of people who like to make up sh!t.
A bunch of guys sitting around guessing the exact meaning of of old manuscripts that they have no idea where they came from or if it ever was actually gods words, well from someone claiming god spoke to him.
I agree on one thing a higher power or creator is possible (to me unlikely but possible)but if there is such a thing its nothing like what any religion on this planet thinks.
While your at it Hakwa what is your interpretation of the gobbledegook you listed and the relevance?

I believe there may be a God, but what I am pretty certain of is that this entity is not that portrayed in any of the major religions. All religions are fundamentally flawed. In other words, there may well be a creator of the big bang/universe/earth, but in my opinion, if such a being did exist, it is pretty clear that he/she/it does not give a rats arse about humanity. This obvious fact can be seen in the death of innocent babies in earthquakes, wars, tsunamis etc. It can also be seen in things like the Nazis murdering more than 10 million people where "God" did nothing. It is also clear that "God" does not care at all about people of the "wrong" religion that will automatically go to hell simply for being born in the wrong area geographically to the wrong family. 
So no, I am not an atheist, but I am certainly not religious. I believe my view point is that shared by most of the scientists that are neither religious nor atheist. In other words, not being an atheist and being open to spirituality definitely does not equate to being religious. 
Lastly, the very nature of science is evidence based. I would question any scientist that believes in any religious view 100%, because none can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt.  

There are two things that I cannot get. Bible bashers who do not understand the concept of "Spreading the Word". The idea is to make non-believers aware of the Gospel. Not to shove it down the throats of non-believers. It says in Revalations, after all, that the Lord will knock on your door and if you invite Him in He will dine with you. By implication, if you don't invite him in, he will move on. Simple really. He will not break down your door and force Himself on you. The choice is yours. The second thing that I do not get is atheists', fixated mission to prove the Bible and Christianity wrong. Thing is that it is correct that the Bible has changed and that it was written when people believed that the earth was flat. Fact is that it is not about the exact same wording of the original text. It is about the message in the Bible. Things like love your neighbour, honour your parents, etc, etc. Not about whether or not Samson really killed 30 Philistines, or whether he really pulled down the pillars of the temple.

 How do you invite him in if he never comes to you?

He does come to you. He has probably "knocked on your door hundreds of times in your life". You just failed to see it because you did not recognise Him because you do not know Him.

 Cant he introduce himself?Maybe he is shy or overawed to be in my presence.
I am certain no god has come to visit me but have had a few Mormons come to my door, was it one of them?

 Seriously, I didn't recognise him. You think a god would stand out from a run of the mill standard person when he walks up to you for a chat and is he unable to say "Hi I am God" even I can say that. 
Also if what you say is true how did anyone recognise him because like you say nobody knew him to start with so using your logic nobody would recognise him or is he an elitist and only talks to special people

That is one way of approaching the subject. Making fun of it and taking the piss. The other way is having a serious discussion about it. You see, the thing, IMO, is that many non-believers think that being a Christian is a heavy burden and comes with loads and loads of responsibilities and "inhuman" commitments. It's not. It is quite easy, TBH. And it is not difficult or life changing. Let me remind you once again. I am not talking about being one of these soap box preachers who are trying to change the world and who has seen the light, etc, etc. Many of those are as off the road as non-believers, IMO.

 I dont think being a christian is a heavy burden, what extra burden does a christian have to carry of anyone else. According to you lot your already got both feet on the escalator just waiting for god to turn it so you can sit in your mansion in the sky.
I am simply stating a fact, if he exists why cant he introduce himself. Is it to hard for him to let people know he exists?Why doesn't he show himself especially to non believers, if I cant recognise him, its him thats doing a lousy job not me. 
And dont come with all that crap that I haven't opened my heart to him or I have closed my mind thats just a lame excuse religious people come up with.I am more than ready for god to show himself to me and I will be a follower of him but not until HE convinces me not you or any other person. Face it you DO NOT KNOW if there is  a god or an after life or anything like that  YOU are as ignorant as every single person on this earth. So until he decides to prove himself to me I will continue to believe whatever the hell I like just like you 

Let me start off with your very last remark. Of course you are allowed to believe "what ever the hell" you like. Nothing should be forced upon you. I will also not try and convince you to open your heart, etc, etc. All those "magical" things that people like to talk about, you know. Where I do not fully agree with you is your idea that He has to "show himself", etc. Just like you do not believe that He has shown Himself, I believe that He has shown Himself to me. The difference is that I have chosen to believe in the teachings of the church and the Bible and you have chosen not to. Because I do believe, I have managed to recognise whenever He has "shown Himself" to me. I do not care about being convinced by science of the existence of God. I don't need to. There are many things that science cannot explain...... yet. As you said elsewhere, the Bible was written in a time when people believed that the earth was flat and then science proved that it wasn't. Maybe science will some day prove the existence of God or not. If not, then I have wasted my time believing. Will that mean that I had a crap life because of that? No ways. But what if science some day prove that God does exist? Boy, are there going to be a hell of a lot of people who will have a lot of catching up to do, and pronto as well. LOL.

Let me start off with your very last remark. Of course you are allowed to believe "what ever the hell" you like. Nothing should be forced upon you. I will also not try and convince you to open your heart, etc, etc. All those "magical" things that people like to talk about, you know. Where I do not fully agree with you is your idea that He has to "show himself", etc. Just like you do not believe that He has shown Himself, I believe that He has shown Himself to me. The difference is that I have chosen to believe in the teachings of the church and the Bible and you have chosen not to. Because I do believe, I have managed to recognise whenever He has "shown Himself" to me. I do not care about being convinced by science of the existence of God. I don't need to. There are many things that science cannot explain...... yet. As you said elsewhere, the Bible was written in a time when people believed that the earth was flat and then science proved that it wasn't. Maybe science will some day prove the existence of God or not. If not, then I have wasted my time believing. Will that mean that I had a crap life because of that? No ways. But what if science some day prove that God does exist? Boy, are there going to be a hell of a lot of people who will have a lot of catching up to do, and pronto as well. LOL.

 But what are the chances they will prove it is your god?Maybe I will be better off as at least I didnt worship a false god.
If there is only 1 god how can you be certain you have the right one, there is just as much evidence for all the other gods. Doesn't it worry you that you are following the wrong one?What if you are actually following Satan and he is tricking you, after all anything is possible
What will you do or say if you find yourself standing before Thor or Zues or any of the 1,000s of other gods that it could be. Let say there has only been 1,000 gods worship by man ever that gives you 0.01% chance that you have chosen the right one and condems billions of people through the ages to hell. 

Zues....who dat?

And by the way if there are a thousand gods, the probability a worshipper has the right one is 0.1% not 0.01%. Are you really qualified to make this decision for mankind Sader? I wonder, what are your credentials? .. LMAOFY!

What are the chances they will prove there is a real god? I don't know. Back in the day, what would the answer have been if someone asked what the chances were of science proving that the earth is round. I don't know for sure about the evidence of other gods. I have seen evidence of the existence of God, or maybe it was evidence in my opinion only, but it was enough to make me believe. I would prefer to decline to elaborate, if you wouldn't mind, because it is quite personal. I do not worry about having chosen the wrong God. I believe that I have the right one. We have had a nice discussion so far and I have not bombarded you with one Bible verse after the other. I would like to give you this piece though. Just to demonstrate to you how simple and uncomplicated it is to be a Christian. It is from the letter to the Ephesians. Do yourself a favour and read it carefully, or ignore it. The choice is yours. Apologies that if it doesn't paste well, since there are a lot of links to cross references in the original piece. Children and Parents 1Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. 2. Honor your father and mother,” which is the first commandment with promise: 3“that it may be well with you and you may live long on the earth.” 4And you, fathers, do not provoke your children to wrath, but bring them up in the training and admonition of the Lord. Bondservants and Masters 5Bondservants, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in sincerity of heart, as to Christ, not with eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but as bondservants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart, 7with goodwill doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men, 8 knowing that whatever good anyone does, he will receive the same from the Lord, whether he is a slave or free. 9And you, masters, do the same things to them, giving up threatening, knowing that your own Master also is in heaven, and there is no partiality with Him. The Whole Armor of God 10Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. 11Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. 14Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness, 15 and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; 16above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one. 17And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God; 18 praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints— 19and for me, that utterance may be given to me, that I may open my mouth boldly to make known the mystery of the gospel, 20for which I am an ambassador in chains; that in it I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak. A Gracious Greeting 21But that you also may know my affairs and how I am doing, Tychicus, a beloved brother and faithful minister in the Lord, will make all things known to you; 22whom I have sent to you for this very purpose, that you may know our affairs, and that he may comfort your hearts. 23Peace to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 24Grace be with all those who love our Lord Jesus Christ in sincerity. Amen.

"Faith is not wanting to know what the truth is." - Friedrich Nietzsche

And the truth is......., Rooi?

I think it's safe to say you're missing the point of my quote, Ceradunce.
I'd try to set you straight but I think I'd be wasting my time.

Well there you have it. One atheist quoting another to set a Christian straight. An atheist who assumes that he knew the reasons why people were believers. That brings me back to what I said much earlier. I do not get it why atheists are so set on proving that believers are wrong. Maybe Nietzsche would also have been evasive if asked what the truth is.

I think everyone wants to understand reality. So that is also disproving viewpoints which you do not think are true. 
Atheists or spiritualists could be spreading a "truer" word than Christians of Universal/Nature/Truth/a God/s- "if" they are "more" correct in their understanding of reality, actions and beliefs.

 Faith: lets you believe anything you want without the requirement of evidence.
I can never understand why people quote from the bible to non believers, its irrelevant what it says as its just a book written by men. It is no different than any other fairy tale that has been written.
Once it is proven that it is the word of god, then you can quote it as fact, until then it belongs in the fiction section along with all the other religions books.
" Faith can subdue kingdoms, bring about righteousness and work miracles, heck it can even move mountains. "Faith can also work death and destruction, not everything done in the word of faith is good for the world and the people in it. Why cant religious people see that it is a two edged sword and has done as much damage as it has done good.

Nonsense....religion was the basis for the first moral code, the first legal systems, the first great music and art.....and the only inspiration for architecture up through the 1600s. Atheism has given us precisely nothing so far.

Nonsense....religion was the basis for the first moral code, the first legal systems, the first great music and art.....and the only inspiration for architecture up through the 1600s. Atheism has given us precisely nothing so far.

 Nothing? if it wasn't for people questioning the church we would still be stuck in the dark ages. You do know that they used to kill anyone that questioned your faith.You would be an uneducated peasant living in a mud hut that knows nothing of the world around you.....ok so nothing has changed for you but everyone else we have moved on
All technology and information we know today is because of people who had doubts about your religion.
Everything we have today is in spite of your religion.

 'kin hell!
SR is over and boom. Straight to it.
My mom thanks God for the things that I do for her.
The Unwitting Agnostic. Paragraph one....Turn The Other Cheek ;)

Rubbish again, the church evolved to accept technology.....all the great inventions of the 19th century were made in a society that was totally religious. And how many of those scientists were trained in Church schools, by priests. Here's Darwin for example. .. Both families were largely Unitarian, though the Wedgwoods were adopting Anglicanism. Robert Darwin, himself quietly a freethinker, had baby Charles baptised in November 1809 in the Anglican St Chad's Church, Shrewsbury, but Charles and his siblings attended the Unitarian chapel with their mother. The eight-year-old Charles already had a taste for natural history and collecting when he joined the day school run by its preacher in 1817. That July, his mother died. From September 1818, he joined his older brother Erasmus attending the nearby Anglican Shrewsbury School as a boarder.[23] .. Without religious education most of your scientists would have been illiterate.

 Of course most scientists were trained in church schools. There were not any schools not ruled by the churches back then. 500 years ago only the upper class could read or attend school and it was in their best interest along with the church to keep the mass's in fear of them.So the 50% of scientists in America that are Athiest have invented nothing or advanced mankinds knowledge in any way, what do they do go to work to eat their lunch?
Scientific advancements were made in the beginning against the churchs wish's.
There is nothing in any of the books on the holocaust about imanginery beings, talking snakes and all of that other nonsence that cannot be proven. As you state there is plenty of physical evidence that the holocaust existing. Do I know for 100%? no because I was not there but there is enough evidence to prove it to 99.99% true.For a book to be classified as fact, the facts have to be scientifically proven as fact. why do you think you never find the bible in amongst the scientific books in a library because its not science. Ever wonder why creationism is not taught in normal schools,  its because it has been proven to be wrong by every scientic field there is.
What physical evidence do you have for a talking snake or eve was made from adams rib bone? Cinderella in not taken as work of fact, why? because there is no proof that a fairy godmother existed that could turn mice into coachmen. If you can prove all of the things in that book can be done and cinderella actually existed then we might believe it is true and not just a work of fiction.
So based on your theory of why the bible is true you have to accept the fact that the koran is also true as it meets all you standards to be accepted as fact. Why arent you a muslim?

 I am a Kiwi born and bred living in Christchurch, and I am proud to say god had nothing to do with it but people did, most followed god but that does not mean he built NZ as it is today. Up until a couple of hundred years ago your god was not even known here. The Maori lived here for centuries without him and seemed to prosper.

 Also go and study the science's not one book refers to magical puffs of smoke and nothing coming from nothing. Where did your god come from, did he appear in a puff of magic smoke? he would be much more complex than the universe if he can waive a hand to create it yet he can appear from nothing and your happy to believe that.If some thing as complex as a god can come from nothing believing a universe should be  easy for you to accept.
Religious people always seem to think we get upset that you believe in a god, we dont care at all that you do but that doesn't mean we can't point out the multitude of mistakes  and errors in the bible or the crazyness of your beliefs.Just the same as you are free to point out the things you think are wrong  or what we cant explain. The difference is a scientist will just say we dont know yet where a religious person will just make up sh!t to get around an obvious flaw in their belief.Also prove to a scientist that there is an error and they will happily change their beliefs and text books something the religious will never do no matter how wrong they are proved to be.Creationist are a prime example of this, their ideas have been totally proved as incorrect but they just dont care (in Ken Hams case the money is to dam good to admit he is wrong.) 

 What an interesting debate garnished with some interesting thoughts by both sides. I don't normally dip into these debates simply because I believe religion is a personal thing....it's between you and God so if I were to debate then all of the above would go out the window and therefor no longer personal. Again, I find the views for and against quite interesting and it's great to see barring a couple of snide comments the debate has been open and honest.
We've had these debates in the past, one comment rings true, not sure who made it but it went like this...."Ons weet niks"....for our Kiwi friends it means "We know nothing."
I totally agree. No-one can prove there is or isn't a God or a superior being the likes of which we couldn't imagine so it's on that basis that religion demands believers to have faith.....Atheist with respect will say blind faith, nevertheless faith is what it is.
Without getting too deep into my personal beliefs, up until a few years ago I accepted and went along with having faith in God and accepted the holy trinity as written in the holy book central to my beliefs. Then something changed, something impacted on me making me lose faith...making me question once again. I think it is Ceradyne who spoke about God presenting himself to you, I believe I've had two such experiences, pardon me for not going into the details, one of them could easily be dismissed by non believers, the other one can't be dismissed and it is for that reason alone that I lean towards the existence of a Creator.
In past postings I probably came across as a non believer, not true, I resent bible bashers, Christianity being presented in an unpalatable manner as well as those who try to impose their religious beliefs on others. That said I don't believe I'm anywhere close to behaving like a Christian.
I also believe the Bible to be an "instruction manual"....if you like, it represents Christ's teachings, he is not accountable for our daily sufferings or for that matter our happiness and successes, that is the making of mankind alone, we choose to ignore or accept his teachings, we wear the consequences come judgement day.
For example, we as mankind have the power and the ability to free ourselves from our greatest crime....poverty. We don't need Him to help us....it's not Him who makes the All Blacks win a game, for Zuma to behave like a common criminal and it's not him who's responsible for a Hitler....we are. He has presented us His manual, He has  left it in our care, we choose to make it come good or bad.
Just my 5 cents.

I really don't mean to insult anyone, but I find it amazing that many really intelligent Christian people cannot see the massive conundrum that exists, in that if even one Muslim child dies believing the "wrong" thing, the bible says he will go to hell. The fact that the child was innocent, obedient to his parents and faithful to what he had no reason not to believe was his God, is irrelevant. How can any intelligent person be okay with this? Have you ever really asked yourself that question? Or this one. Are you okay with a God that creates children, placing them geographically where they will almost certainly follow the "wrong" God through no fault of their own, and then go straight to hell if they die? Forget every other argument about weather or not God can or can't be proven, because there is no way to prove either argument. But the conundrum I have pointed out above is fact. 

Either the Christian God is an evil sadist creating people he knows will go to hell, or the bible is wrong. One of the two statements is true.
Obviously what I have stated above applies equally to all religions. Please please please understand, I am not having a go at Christians. What I actually want is for someone to resolve this problem for me, to clear a path for me to believe something again, but I cannot see how it is possible.  
Sorry for posting in bold, but I want my post to stand out because I honestly lie awake at night thinking about this and I really hope someone here, unlike the priests and intellectuals I have asked before , will be able to shed some light for me. 

DA, that is true, but it is easy enough for a religious person to say things like God moves in mysterious ways, or a number of other standard replies absolving God of responsibility. In other words, there are a number of counter arguments to your statement, no matter how feeble those arguments may be. In my example there is a clear contradiction and it is stated clearly in the bible. The w hole point of the bible is that the ONLY way into heaven is to accept Jesus as the son of God and saviour.  

 Blou, I can't answer your question, there are many others I can't answer but unlike a lot of Christians I'm not going to second guess what a Creator would say neither will I accept that all of what the Bible says is true and correct. You are not alone in asking for answers, I have one in particular that I've been wrestling with for yonks knowing there is not a soul around who can. Still, as a Christian one has to have faith......

 Crusaderfan..... a question...
Let's imagine there was nothing, if that's possible bearing in mind we've(you me and everyone else) have always ben surrounded by something. I'm saying don't imagine air or a molecule as nothing, I mean nothing, total darkness I assume.....tell me then, how is something created whether it be a Creator or the minutest living thing bring about its own existence? I'm not knocking your beliefs, I'm just curious as to how an Atheist explains how something can come out of nothing assuming we have the same interpretation of nothing. I can also ask the same question of Christians. Please don't start your explanation with the big bang theory, my starting point is with absolutely no existence of anything.

 There actually cant be anybody more foolish than the atheist. As God has said - the fool has said in his heart there is no God. Before the fall these was no sickness and death. When man of his own free will said no to God's rule mankind chose another master who they had obeyed - Satan. And so all on man's troubles began. Sickness , death, murdering, lying moral corruption etc et.Now we have very foolish people like CF and ou rooitwit (is this clown ever right ?)
My advise to moronic atheists.  End you raging against God, bow the knee and admit you are a vile sinner worthy of judgement and ask Him in Jesus precious NAME to forgive you of your many sins and save you. God sent His Son into the world not to condemn the world but that through HIM the world might be saved.
Your darkened minds are so twisted that you now hate your maker and embrace all sorts of evil. You are so insane as to call the Holy and righteous  God evil.  Its all well and good trying to impress people as to how bold you are about hating God but you would do well to recall how that atheists Voltaire died in terror of the Nazarene. Your empty words will not stand the test when the end comes and you face death itself and at that moment know you are LOST. The Saviour waits still for you to turn to him that you may escape the judgement you so richly deserve.So spare us your empty words and vain boasts of how you are standing up to this unrighteous God you know nothing about. Instead consider the Cross and what it means.I wouldn't swop places with poor wretched CF and Rooitwit for all world.
Lastly just remember oaks that the universe didn't create itself. I trust you follow the logic. Bwahahahahahhahahaha

 Religion does not explain the why, it is a hypothesis put forward with very little evidence to support it. Thats not to say it is not true but it is incredibly unlikely to be the correct answer on what we know at the moment (which in the scheme of things is very little)And you mentioned magical eruptions and things popping into existance I was just expanding on your claims.Yes you are allowed to practise your beliefs and I would fight for you to retain that right just dont go foisting your beliefs into law that effect other people. We do not have euthanasia laws because of you faith which impingess on my right
So you are happy for the god reference to be removed if enough people want it?
I have raised 2 girls and a boy who were raised without faith and they are kind, caring, respectful and loving athiest so what is your point? My children prove you dont need to follow a god to be human. We are here to forge these relationships with our family as once they are dead they are gone forever.
As for the Maori they are all burning in hell according to your religion and were condemned from the moment they were born, dont you feel any anything for them?
They were converted because they didn't know any better and it was forced onto them. I dont think they had a lot of choice a couple of hundred years ago as they were certainly not treated in the christian way like so many native people when christian settlers turned up. Ask the Aborigines of Tasmania how it turned out for them. Oh you cant can you as the good christians hunted them to extinction.
For great quotes listen to Brian in Life of Brian where all the followers turn up outside his house. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zjz16xjeBAAYes its a comedy but his speech is so true and more people should follow his advice

 Uh-Oh The Troll has arrived.......this is where a healthy debate goes south.
Time to pull up stumps.
cya