Is Rassie Good or Bad for the boks - Lets settle this debate

Okay, so there are clearly two camps that really doesn't like what Rassie is doing and what he is doing to the boks. 

It is pretty obvious that Rassie loves the fact the boks are the school yard bullies that use brute force to subdue their opponents. But instead of teams being able to front up physically, Rassie exposed the substitute laws now that World Rugby wants to have competeting scrums and now you can have an entire front row. The biggest and heaviest players on the park that can cause a lot of damage. 

Fortunately for us, we have a lot of boys who like their braai vleis and we seem to have more of these fat bastards that we know what to do with them. Then mix in our Dutch Ancestry, who if you believe world stats is the tallest nation in the world. We have so many guys over 2 meters. I remembered playing in Ireland and you couldn't find a prop. The guys over there were desperate. Yes, you get some fat guys around, but they have been living of pies and beer, not the stuff our boys have been living off. 

I for one is a Rassie fan, yes, I hate the brand of rugby that he has brought in. I wish we could attack  more and throw the ball around a bit more and use players like Kolbe, Mpimpi, Am, Fassi and Le Roux in the way we know they can play. Hell, even with a more attacking game Jantjies looks for more the better player. 

But we tried that under Pieter De  Villiers, Coetzee, Meyer and Carel Du Plesis to name a  few and even Harry Viljoen. 

So what it will it be, back to the days where we sink to number 7 or do we stay number 1 and make if bloody hard for any team to beat us. 

I for one vote for the latter. Not to mention the player depth that he has created. 

We aslo have to contend with this bloody 50% transformation target too and that is why we see shit player like Marvelous Orie in the team. 

I like Ox and Bongi, but I would have Marx and Thomas the Tank any day in my front row as starter a long with Ginger Kittshoff. 

So Rassie has to play dumb rugby to make the lesser players fit in. 

Not all of his picks are quotas, but he has minimise the damage

Kingcorn, can you imagine if we were 7 in the world what the level of wailing and gnashing of teeth that would be going on here! 

Currently we lead the IRB rankings by 5 points and still we have weird, wonky, whingers whining all day long and polluting the board with their extreme drivel and, may I say it, nasty vitriol. We want to be ballerinas they holler in shrill high pitched tones. 

Now anybody who has been watching Bok rugby knows we have scored some great backline tries. So to start with the case made against the Boks is not a fair or balanced one.

Next just how attacking were our opponents. The Lions and the Argies launched an aerial assault on us, to no avail of course, but they get of scot free.

In the RWC final we let rip on attack and blew poor England away. Yes the England who beat the kiwi ballerinas with no trouble.

I expect that as this side stays together and grows their attacking ability will grow. The basics are in place, the core of a squad is in place and now its incremental improvements. 

Anybody wanting Rassie gone is a traitor to the Bok cause no matter who they might be pretending to be. Beware the fakers like that far left Welsh rabbit redrooi!  Or rogue elements who are dying for Bok losses just so R assie gets fired and they get relief from their pain and very bruised egos. Every Bok win and their pain grows. Given all the wins one can only imagine their agony! You know who I am talking about! 

Ja, I've not seen an alternative in how the boks should play or who should coach them. Snorre De Villiers tried and the John Smit just said no and went back to what the knew. 

The only coach I felt brought the best out the boks were Nick Mallet with our 17 run winning streak, but not all the games were pretty and when he started folding under pressure to bring in players with more flair like Skinstad and that some of you wrote on other threads, the boks all of sudden become boring with Jannie De Beer. 

But don't forget, that team was very direct. You probably had one of the most hardest tacklers, Pieter Muller at 12, but dam good. Henry Honeyball, crass ball rugby player but poor kicker and then Japie Mulder. They were all direct players with hardly any flair, but it got us tries and we spend 20 years look for a Honeyball replacement. 

To me Rassie is doing the same, we just have more elusive players and the All Blacks great Conrad Smith is really impressed how the boks are playing 

Yes you cannot but be impressed by what the Boks have achieved. You don't win like the Boks have won by playing poor rugby!

They don't like the style they say, style is everyting they tell us. Yet these same whining whingers were hollering to the heavens when we were at 7. 

Man what a bunch of unthinking mamparas!  Drooling loons!

I also seem to recall when had the same wags telling us we shouldn't play like he wee abs as it doesn't suit us? Now as means to get at Rassie they have changed tune!

Conservative rugby has been the order of the day in South Africa since at least the professional era.

It is a problem that starts at school and continues into professional levels, Many South Africa SuperXV teams scored most of their tries by the forwards, unlike their New Zealand counterparts. Only the Transvaal Lions in recent years, have played as expansive as New Zealand teams scoring with their backs more often than forwards. 

However, at Springbok level, the Boks are able to put together a well-balanced backline that can run the ball. 
The performance last weekend were some glimpses into the attacking potential of the boks on phase play, not just counter attack. 

Well, if you look how Gatland coaches his teams, be it Wales or Lions, they play a suffocating game. You have to be patient against him or they will expose you and that is what Rassie did. Cut all of the errors. 

The boks will now change gear and know they will have to use their backs more, you are right, we saw some better backline play and hopefully some of the shackles will come off against Aus and NZ

Hall Of Fame

34222 posts

WD.........no reason why our forwards couldn't have improved handling/offloading and the team couldn't work some set moves inside the 22 like the one that saw Folau score last weekend. That would have sharpened the team....no need to foreswear defence as Smith seems to have done, tactical kicking and powerful set pieces. 

Hall Of Fame

17969 posts

 Mozart, do you really think that SA has the type of forwards needed to execute the forward dominance?

Last week we saw how impotent the Bok attack (this includes forward AND backs) is. Their base two screen play which they ran all game didn't yield one positive result. They cannot create space, they cannot use space and the only means over the gainline has been with the boot. The Boks the bully boys? Not quite. Territorial advantage and penalties against  the opposition under the high ball and at mauls has deflected away from the fact that the Boks are getting pushed around in general play. We have fleeting moments of breakdown dominance. Our best attacking play with the backs came when Frans was at 12 in the first Puma test. He created more space and width with the pass than the others have done in their entire test careers at 12. It looked a little more natural, even his movement off the ball influenced play. W illie is largely ineffective. We are dead last for atttack output with a game in hand over New Zealand and Australia. We haven't beaten a top 5 side since November 2019 and have only beaten 4 top 5 teams since Josè took over. The Josè supporters are in for a rude awakening. 

Hall Of Fame

34223 posts

The deluded notion that we were going to beat NZ at their own game came crashing down today. When this backline was selected against France I called it the worst defensive unit ever....the poor play of our opponents to date disguised that. Today we saw just how pathetic our whole back 5 really is. 

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And how about those painfully slow phase attacks.....which could only end one way, a turnover to NZ. What would one have given for a pinpoint Morne kick to the corner flag and Victor to contest the lineout. No I'm not suggesting they come back....I'm noting we have lost that weapon and we don't even register it. 

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This humiliation for Bok rugby was not necessary. But it was inevitable. The bile directed at our WC team, the revelation of new tactics could only end here. There is no progress....none. I noted that last week as we scored tries from turnover ball given to us by the equally hapless Aussies. And our pathetic rugby media frothed about it.....failing to note we hardly gained a metre in non turn over play. 

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Where we go from here is an interesting question. The experiment of Jantjies taking the ball to the gain line hasn't worked. What tactics do we adopt next.....England's or NZ? Do we continue to try to play a game which we can't play as well as NZ and Oz, or do we find a more balanced game which suits our stength. 

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And it's time all this deluded bleating for ordinary players stops. No Kitshoff wasn't nearly as effective as the Beast. No du Preez is not a physical monster, NZ handled him with ease. No Stephanie is not a wonder lock, he has to earn his place with consistent performances. It's a pity Kleintjie wasn't playing so we could better assess him as well. 

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Stop the frigging BS. Populate the scrum with a proper tighthead. Send Marx for yips training, and be prepared to sub him early with a proper hooker, not Bongi, if he implodes. And think about getting a few pros back from the NH.

I have no problem with Rassie as a coach. He is a very astute rugby thinker and I have no problem with the current conservative game plan of the Boks either. If it works and we win matches then it's fine by me.

My problems with Rassie are a) his seeming inability to hand over the reins to Jacques Nienaber and b) his whiny little ref-bashing video that I thought was hugely embarrassing. Makes us all sound like big blubbering crybabies . . . almost as bad as Baboon-ou.

Looks like my first issue is being resolved to some extent because I've just read here that Rassie is not going to be travelling with the Springboks to Australia . The party line is because "Rassie has decided to remain in South Africa for now to allow the focus around the team to remain on the Rugby Championship and the team itself so that they can perform to the best of their ability on the field" . . . which sounds like a load of steaming bullshit and I suspect the real reason is because Rassie still has to face the music for my second issue and that is due to the big blubbering crybaby video that caused real rugby fans so much embarrassment.

So he's good and bad for our rugby at the moment.

Forum » Rugby » The worst Bok tackling backline....ever 

Hall Of Fame

34224 posts

Rhule has missed the most tackles, Jantjies and Skosan are near the top of the Super 15 tackles missed category. Kriel lost the Japan test with a horrible missed tackles and he isn't any better.....Stepfontein is vulnerable to pace and was used as a doormat by Rohan.. 

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Without doubt this is the worst defensive backline ever picked by the Springboks 

So what Harrasssmus has done is obvious….stop trying to play like NZ. Build off our set pieces and defence. But it doesn’t mean we have to play like the Bools. If we don’t develop a proper backline game, countries will figure out a way to limit our success.

Hell if Oz brought back Skelton they would be competitive in the tough stuff.

It’s not an either/or….we can play conservative rugby, cut out the phase play in our own half….and still have a functioning backline to use the Niagara of good ball we get in the opponents’ half.

Harrassmus has done half the job.

What you are describing is the Jake model. Josè's model is something worse. Kick any slow ball, don't attack beyond two phases. Shallow high balls, but not like the tidy strategy of the 2007 Pumas. Just hoof it somewhere up there and the opposition will gift you a penalty or you regather it with advantage. Maul and maul and maul. Throw the odd pass to fill out the 80 minutes. 

"My problems with Rassie are a) his seeming inability to hand over the reins to Jacques Nienaber and b) his whiny little ref-bashing video that I thought was hugely embarrassing. Makes us all sound like big blubbering crybabies . . . almost as bad as Baboon-ou."

That's because you are one, a little whimpering coward with a groot bek...you fear sounding like one too...Rassie did what he thought needed doing...he knew what the fallout would be, and he still did it...for the team...selfless...that's backbone,  but you won't know anything about that....WHOOSH!!!

"That's because you are one, a little whimpering coward with a groot bek"

Stop being so polite to Rooinek Db

"that's backbone,  but you won't know anything about that"

Yep, you are referring to our very own recognized resident runner.....

He runs away from the forum, just like he runs and disappears down the piss drain like a "Urinal Mint"

LMFAO

The attacks on  Erasmus  and some players by two site members started  before  2016  with the appointment of Coetzee when it was pointed out by Erasmus that he as Director of Rugby and Coetzee as Head Coach  could  work together as partners to revive Springbok rugby  from the depths it was in in 2014 and 2015.    The  two then claimed that Erasmus is not a  coaches backside  and Coetzee should be the only way to go.   

It turned really vicious  in 2018 when Ersmus's appointment was announced.   Initially the two accused Erasmus of  being gutless and  leaving the teams he was involved in  on the way down.  The whole career of Erasmus  was totally distorted and misrepresented  and the two members  started a falsified  version of his career from 2006 to 2018.    They did not know what became well-known afterwards  that -

*     Erasmus was appointed as Director of Rugby - which he still is

*     coaching set-up for the 2019 RWC would be effected by Erasmus

*     the ultimate coaching set-up after the WC would be appointed by SARU on the basis recommended by  Erasmus

*     there will not be a selection committee - the  squads and  teams will be selected by the coaching staff.

The players inherited by Erasmus was totally down-hearted  and the team was ranked at no 7.  There were gaps  in the team where new players had to be identified..    Erasmus started the selection process  by selecting  teams giving  new players the opportunity  to  show whether they can make the step up to international rugby.    Some succeeded  others did not.   However, for the first time in a decade  the Springboks beat the AB's in an away test  and there were serious improvement signs beginning to come to the fore.   

In 2019  the first test was a home test in the  RC  against Australia -  Erasmus sent  13 key players to  New Zealand and against the Aussies he  used the opportunity  to get binjured players back into the fray and again chose some players to further proof  that they could succeed  on test level and despite screams of agony  from the two the Springboks  beat the Aussies comfortably  and drew with the AB's  in Wellington.   On their return to SA they ebat the Pumas by  ahuge argin in Argentina.   

In the approach  to the WC it came out that Ersmus and the coaching staff  used a different way to deal with  in  coaching.    Players were asked to present proposals as to how the team can improve on and the team then got the opportunity to discuss  the proposals.    The result was that the team  developed absolute  loyalty to the team itself and the coaching staff as well.    They would figuratively  walk through  a wall  for the team itself and Erasmus and the other coaching staff.

The criticism went to crescendo  level when it came out that a new Head Coach would be appointed after the WC.    Accusations of cowardice  flowed like lava all over he site.   Throughout the 2019 world cup series Erasmus  was under constant attack.   The AB game was for them  a gift  from heaven.    When they beat England  in the final - there were no credit to the SA team - other than for a few of their favored players and the reason for the loss was that the English team was weak.   Erasmus  was given no credit for the winning of  the WC  and the claim was made that  the win was  due to the coaching of Nienaber abilities of Nienaber.   Erasmus was accused of chickening out as coach - a position he was never appointed as and which he took on  temporarily.  

The same chicken out story was repeated when  there were serious problems with Covid in 2020 and  SARU  decided that test match participation was not possible and  then came the next one  - Nienaber is the real coach and Erasmus  was shit.   

Besides attacking especially three players relentlessly the rugby played by the Springboks were poor. despite the fact that there are proof to the contrary.   The Springboks mostly involving both forwards and backline players in attacks  - in other words a fifteen man game   - the tam cored more tries than under any coach in the past decade and played very effective rugby.   

Erasmus was the person that save SA rugby and that is recognized throughout the rugby world and the squeals of the two ignorant sie members are meaningless and utter BS.     

        .  

.

Ou Rooitwit was doing quite well until he went against the correct Beeno view and he then fell apart.

Well Coetzee completely stuffed up the boks and the stormers. If it wasn't for the defence of Nienabaar the stormers would have been bottom of the pile. 

It is strange that the Stormer and Western Province fortunes started to improve when Rassie Became coach and the director of Rugby. He was appointed by Mark Alexander, the former WP president and now the SARU President. 

Rassie was responsible for bringing a number of leading WP and Springbok players through the youth system. Credit has to be given to Mallet for starting the process. 

It looks like once Rassie parted ways with WP as well Mark Alexander, things started to implode and we are now in a place where Newlands had to be sold, the stormers are bearly holding on to their best players other than loyalty and everything is a shambles. 

Not saying it was all Rassie, but at the upper levels in Rugby there are a lot of amateur or the blazer buddies that like to sit in the fancy boxes under the guise of a rugby administrator. 

We have the same incompetence at world rugby and this patronage of the amateur days need to be stamped out. 

For me Rassie was always the right choice, so too Jake the snake as well as Nick Mallet. Mallet lost his job because he complained about ticket prices. Jake wasn't even rewarded for restoring bok pride. 

Why do we fight against successful coaches, when it uplifts our moods and make us feel like world beaters again. 

Rassie at least managed to bring talented black players through. Am is now rated the best 13 in the game. 

Not a fan of Kolisi, but his doing a job. We are winning with black players that can ad value. Mpimpi is a fantastic finisher but had questionable defence. So does Fassi, but they are also scoring tries. 

Elton Jantjies, man this guy impresses me a lot. He had a lot of hype with no outcome, but boy can he actually play. But he is all to happy to be there for the team and happy to play just one game or none, But want to be part of the team. 

You can't replace that. So to me Rassie is a keeper. 

We should protect him because how many times have we had to put up with poor reffing.  

"Well Coetzee Rassie completely stuffed up the boks and the stormers. If it wasn't for the defence of Nienabaar the stormers would have been bottom of the pile."

Wrong Korn, the Stormers of those days had the fingerprints of Rassie all over it. It's uncanny. The Stormers were never an attacking force under José. José has turned the Boks into the same blunt and ineffective team as those Stormers sides. Everything comes down to Nienaber. If only the Boks played like the Bulls, they'd be a better team. But they play like thew nearly men of Super rugby (for a few seasons before they tackled themselves into injuries). Every team José is involved in experiences a decline in attacking output. Thank God he was there long enough to mutate the Cheetahs. José is a Dick Muir, a philosopher without the application. Without Krutch, he doesn't have a leg to stand on. Man manipulation and control, control from a vantage point of safety are his ideals. But he sticks his head up just enough to let you know who really runs the show. He needs control. The Boks have become a dumb lumbering script, a poorly written script at that. Our most inventive and potent attacking weapons are robotic and mere shadows of themselves. Nobody has truly thrived, nobody has reached their potential. This is a Currie Cup coach who has manipulated his way to the top and pulled the wool over the SA media's eyes. Even after his disastrous 2018 season where the team fizzled out rather quickly, he was lauded as a saviour. Anything but. He inherited a spine that he hasn't been able to evolve. The performance drop I'd say is akin to 2009-2010, but there never was a 2009 in the José reign. Fortuitous circumstances and one solid game was all 2019 had to offer, like the 2016 Portuguese side who bumbled their way to the final, having about 60 great minutes of football all tournament to get the job done. Unconvincing. 

PS: Kolisi had one passable test under José, the third Lions test. Aside from that, he has flatlined. Fassi failed. Elton is alright, at times. Why so slow to elevate RG and Esterhuizen? Why hasn't he picked up on the obvious Steph defensive blunders and ineffective general play? Why is Lood rewarded for failing miserably? Willemse? What has he ever done? He made one sort of positive contribution in the Lions series and has been absolutely awful elsewhere. This man has serious problems where analytics are concerned. 

Aug, you were probably too young to watch those games, but the stormers actually had the best attack in Super Rugby in the first 2 seasons of Rassie as coach. Even Graham was impressed about how well they played. We had the likes of Jongi Nokwe and Tondarai Chavanga who we all were shocked for being selected up against much bigger kiwi wingers, but needless to say, these guys put egg all over their wingers with sheer pace. One kiwi coach even said that how can you coach against pace. 

It was when Coetzee came on board as coach, political appointment that the stirmers lost their attacking edge. 

The same Coetzee that became the backline coach of the boks. Back in 2004 Jake White won the Tri Nations on bonus points but we started seeing less attacking rugby. 

But you probably never watched these games

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Super_14_season

They went from 10 to 5, but won on road in New Zealand which was unheard of. 

Coetzee took over the following season and they went back to 10

Also, donkey shouting the grass is blue. Will leave it there

Also, donkey shouting the grass is blue. Will leave it there

Well there is Kentucky blue grass.

Rugby Legend

6113 posts

We haven't beaten a top 5 side since November 2019

No insult but it's a dumb question answered in one way only.......what is the Boks current ranking?

And just to labour the point......it's physically impossible to go better than being #1. Mission accomplished. It's what every sporting nation aspires to achieve.

Fact.

Have that with your breakfast.

I don't think the backline is as big a problem as you think, I think the problem is the overuse of the box kick and the chip kick.... use it don't abuse it. This is the one aspect of the Bok game that needs to evolve, the idea that backline play is dependent on one or two players is an absolute nonsense .....backline play or attack is based on the smarts and skills of the whole team the only difference of course is that the backs inject speed into the attack. There's a lot of talk in this forum about creating space, there's none on how to create space.....are backs suppose to create space? If so how? I don't believe they do and I've yet to see an international team that solely relies on their backs to create space. Once the opposition align their defence backs run into a brick wall. The missing bit in the Boks is the intellectual property on how to attack and create space. The Wallabies of the '90s were supreme masters. In modern day rugby more tries are scored from broken play than from set play and that is because the opposition defence is fractured in broken play. 

I say again, the Boks are in a nice space at the moment but they have to evolve from here and it will be interesting to see whether the current coaches can lift them to a higher level of play. The nucleus of the team revolves around some brilliant individuals and the class of 2019 could well become the class of the decade. Mistake free defence based rugby is ideal in a WC format  where only three crucial games are played to be successful

So yes the current game plan however basic is suffice to remain #1 but for how long? We've seen it all before there's nothing new in our gameplan, the good Kiwi teams of the past matched our physicality and dismantled the predictability of our box kicks by deploying box kick diffusers. The worst part of our gameplan is that it's predictable and for that reason the Boks need to evolve, it's not a good thing for the opposition to know what to expect. The Boks are in a nice space, there are some brilliant individuals in the nucleus of the team and the class of 2019 could very well become the class of the decade and although our pattern of play is ideal in a WC format it will not survive on a long time basis outside of that unique format. The All Blacks will simply go past the Boks.

"I say again, the Boks are in a nice space at the moment but they have to evolve from here and it will be interesting to see whether the current coaches can lift them to a higher level of play. The nucleus of the team revolves around some brilliant individuals and the class of 2019 could well become the class of the decade. "

^^^^^

THIS!!!