CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
11 Oct 2015, 16:20#41
Pakie
It is probably better for your health that you did not see Fransie playing for ages. He was disastrous in virtually all matches he played in at Super 15 level. Plumtree was 100% correct when in 2013 he said Fransie is no center.
CAcarpetmuncher
Pro1,667 posts
CAcarpetmuncherPro1,667 posts
11 Oct 2015, 16:33#42
DF if you think a 10 is the only reason a backline is not "clicking" then i am afraid there is not much hope.
no backline in the world can function with the type of style the boks are playing at the moment. not a single one. the pattern is focused on one off runners and the few static balls that we do get out wide is either taken up by a flat narrow de allende to muscle his way over the gain line or kriel having a crack. all this is being done off slow ball. as the quick ball is preplanned on attack to the forwards.
there is no speed on the ball no depth and no width in the speed of pass. school boy stuff but its not being coached into the pattern. nothing wrong with the players as the players at this level has the skillsets to play that style but if you have a dogmatic ultra conservative coach that does not believe playing proper opensiders in a game that requires it your playing a losing game. you can scrum and lineout your way to the history books but total rugby wins cups not defence and static first phases only.
DBDbDraad
Captain26,388 posts
DBDbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
12 Oct 2015, 12:40#43
IMO Fransie's ship sailed when he withdrew from the Boks due to contractual issues. As for 12, DdA and Serf are the only 2 options. At 13? I have said since forever that the best regular 13 playing Super Rugby should at least be in the squad and should have gotten a few outings prior to the RWC. This never happened. I used to be a De Jongh fan, but he showed little the last 2 years. Who else? Take your pick, anyone should have been better than an untested Kriel playing out of position. He has done well till now. He made errors, but that was a given. He might develop into a great 13 and he might even do the job for us this RWC, but it remains a stupid, shortsighted gamble that shouldn't have been necessary after 4 years. There is no excuse. Same with a few other positions. Dumb. I like Meyer and rate him as a coach, but he really drop the ball here, even if we manage to win the tournament, it would be luck rather than planning. Sadly I don't really see a suitable candidate to replace him.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
12 Oct 2015, 13:09#44
CM
From what I have seen of outside centers in Super 15 this year -
* the one guy that really impressed me this year as a center was Harold Vorster of the Lions; and* thn there was also Francois Venter of the Cheetahs.
Vorster in his first year in Super 15 and playing only after Round 3 turned out a number of magic performances - initially at 12, where he was good - but when they moved him to 13 - he really was a class act. He is likely going to be very much in the limelight next year and would compete for selection next year with Kriel for the 13 position.
The guy that has shown a lot of promise in an under-performing team is Venter. The guy is to my mind a very good player.
Although I know the Superfox rating of players is not a comprehensive basis for rating of players in Super 15, I believe it does in broad terms indicate the performance abilities of players. According to there ratings the rating of centers in Super 15 this year was as follows:-
1 Damian de Allende6 Harold Vorster8 Francois Venter52 Francois Steyn.
DBDbDraad
Captain26,388 posts
DBDbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
12 Oct 2015, 13:49#46
Back to OP, Moz, a lot of your recent topics almost remind of barking too.
DEDezertFox
Pro2,288 posts
12 Oct 2015, 14:15#47
Draad de Jongh contributed far more to the Stormers than Damian. He is the workhorse of that backline and miraculously succeeded in being a potent defensive force despite Damian leaving him exposed throughout the competition. de Jongh more than proved himself.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
12 Oct 2015, 14:51#48
Draad it only seems that way because you have got yourself trapped in some awkward positions like supporting Koch, being a Victor denier....and joining the groupies in wishing for two centres who can't tackle
DBDbDraad
Captain26,388 posts
DBDbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
12 Oct 2015, 16:24#51
Moz, I still think there might be value in Koch. Would be in my squad ahead of Coenie, but you don't test players in a RWC, so I'm not too worried about his exclusion. (One test off the bench, getting injured and playing another test not fully recovered, did not prove anything... yet) Still prefer him to all the others tried.
I'm not a Matfield denier, but IMO he should be used sparingly....I concede I might be wrong.
As for the centers. I'm a huge Jean fan, but Meyer put him back in the starting 15 too soon, hence him being out injured again. We knew what we had in him, so there was no real reason to rush him back. From those at the RWC, the current 2 should have played as much games as possible this year, seeing that there are no real alternatives. DdA deserved his place, Kriel got lucky that Meyer's gamble paid off...sort of. I'm just as worried as anyone else that the pairing is undercooked especially with Pollard inside them, but we don't really have alternatives.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
12 Oct 2015, 16:54#54
Dave
What have we got here? Low Life that knows nothing about rugby and if yoiu do not agree with his waffling about his take on Ouma Victoria Matfield, Fatter than Fat Willem Alberts, Fat Fransie, Defenseless De Jongh, Poor Morne Steyn and Jannie the Useless Du Plessis - you are maljgned by him. He has weird ideas about what a player should deliver and does not realize when he comes short in performance. If he thinks stats can prove his point - selected bits will be put on site.
Then we have the weird Desert (Dim) Fox. He support all the players Low Life support and demonize all players Low Life demonizes. Both see things from teh same perspective and comes up with the funniest BS imaginable. From what DF writes De Jongh is the best center in SA - Morne is a world class flyhalf - Matfield is the great contributor to the Springbok pack, Fransie must be in the squad because he his a good boot, They cannot see pass their own a r s e h o l e s when it comes to performance of rugby players or the syle of rugby to be played.
For then 90% of th functions of any flyhalf or even 12 is to have a boot - the backline is there to act as defendsive dummies - nothing else required - there is no need to have loosies to undertake ball protection and recovery - to augment Matfield's deficiencies as a Tight 5 player, select Alberts at 7.
I have never thought that the amount of rugby ignorance shown by those two in fact exist - it is amazing that two people could even consider that rubbish as feasible in rugby.
DBDbDraad
Captain26,388 posts
DBDbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
12 Oct 2015, 17:59#55
Agreed DA - harsh, but Jean was under pressure to prove himself and might have tried to do too much too soon. Anything could have happened, even if he was phased in slower. It is a contact sport afterall. We would never know, but it happens a lot that players get injured again soon after getting rushed back. I'm not blaming Meyer nor Jean but the fact is, he wasn't really 100% ready. The gamble didn't pay off. Hard luck on Jean, Meyer, the Boks and especially on Kriel or whoever else who will have to play in his stead.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
12 Oct 2015, 18:19#56
Would he have been any readier three weeks later? Who knows. We could have kept him away from the Samoans I suppose, but there was huge pressure after the Jap game. It was just bad luck I think.
As for the argument we should never have been in this place, I give HM a pass there as well. We tried Taute, we tried JJ, we tried Step....they have all been shown up to various degrees. The fact is we simply don't have the big talent as centre, players that grabbed their chance as Pollard did.
In my view the mistake HM made was calling up Step rather than Fransie.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
12 Oct 2015, 19:07#57
The worst call up would have been Fransie who was the worst center in Super 15 since 2013 - that would be catastrophic. What did Fransie bring to any team he played in since 2012 - zero. I asked you for examples of top class play ovcer the past three years and you or DF could not come up with even one example.
You moan endlessly about the defense of De Allende - but Fransie was worse in defense than De Allende and his attacking play was non-existent. So what would he have brought to the squad.
Yout list of players tried at 13 was very selective. The list of players tried did not include not only those mentioned by you. De Villiers played at 13 to accommodate the utterly useless Fransie, De Jongh (who went AWOL in the two tests he played in that position in 2012), Fourie (who was slow and useless in attack and tackled those players he could get to (Davies of Wales ran past him twice without even a tackle attempt by Fourie). Last year Meyer used basically Pietersen, De Allende and Serfontein.
In other words - Meyer used eleven different players as outside center since he was appointed as Springbok coach. That is bad news on its own - it indicates poor player identification and lack of squad building at best.
And then you sp eak about Fransie - OMG - what a farcical suggestion.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
12 Oct 2015, 21:42#58
Pervert go back to your child porn sites, you are boring me.
SASaffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SASaffolk Captain30,741 posts
12 Oct 2015, 21:50#59
Why the fuck would we want to retain Jean when he has been a non entity for the past 2 years.....when last did Jean do anything of note.......name it. Since his comeback from his latest injury he was more than bloody useless.....more than anything he was embarrassingly slow.
DA and Kriel are the best young centre pair in the game right now......by some considerable distance.....no other pair has their attacking clout
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
12 Oct 2015, 21:55#60
It bores you to hear the truth about poor Fransie? Not really that I did not expect it. Do you know Foxsport rated Fransie as the number 52 center in Super 15 this year? Probably not - but it indicates he was not good enough to make any of th center positions in any team in Super 15. Mind you he was out for fiver weeks because of his red card and was also out for 3 weeks because of injury. But even if he did play more matches it was no guarantee he would not fail totally and end up with negative points.
Bad ne ws that one.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
12 Oct 2015, 22:28#61
Jj and Step are th best young centre pairing in the game....JJ is better than Jean and Fury...Step is he finest young 12 in the game....Allende and Kriel are the best young centre pairing in the game...Taute is the best13 prospect in years. ....Wynand is better than Jean.
It's embarrassing, bombastic and silly.
SASaffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SASaffolk Captain30,741 posts
12 Oct 2015, 22:38#62
Serfontein is 21 and been out for much of the season and in your ignorant eyes he is history.....wow
When did I say JJ was better than Jean.....you bang on about Mike lying.....what exactly are you doing here?
One would swear that useless Meyer not selecting any of these players was some kind of measure - what a joke.
Wynand is better than Jean......fucking liar
Up your game Moz you are starting to slip.....its all worthy of a fuck off
de Jongh and Adi Jacobs.....enough said.....not to mention your anti anti Fourie - another joke
DEDezertFox
Pro2,288 posts
12 Oct 2015, 23:48#64
Just to inform you M oz, this is what Mike would be going back to.
DEDezertFox
Pro2,288 posts
12 Oct 2015, 23:51#65
Dave, in 2006 you did elevate Olivier over Jean. You said he was the best Bok centre on the scene. I'm not saying he had a bad 06, but he was no Jean or Fourie and never really took the step up. This was the same year you stated Spies would go on to be the greatest ever Bok. One of those other predictions of doom I was castigated for, because everyone knew otherwise.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
12 Oct 2015, 23:57#66
Hahaha....funny stuff. A few of those clips reminded me of a priest we had at school, and of course that's our Mike. Maybe Herbert should be his avatar.....waaaaaahahaha!
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
12 Oct 2015, 23:58#67
You going to apologize Fat Man?
BEBeeno1
Captain40,032 posts
BEBeeno1Captain40,032 posts
13 Oct 2015, 08:22#69
Dr Mozzz do you have any evidence Mike is a pervert. If not how about cutting it out. Calling a person a perv is not nice at all! Ditto meener Fox.
Spies look like a world beater before his illness. was completely different player afterwards.
DEDezertFox
Pro2,288 posts
13 Oct 2015, 14:13#74
Well, Unfortunately I cannot retrieve quotes from a site that was shutdwon seven years ago. But you are quite naive nto think that nobody can remember. The argument was that Jeans cracked rib was not an excuse for our troubles in 2006, Olivier was the best young centre in rugby and was going to be the future of Bok rugby. We supposedly had boundless talent, all test worthy.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
13 Oct 2015, 15:01#75
HasBEEN I have a strong intuition based on lifestyle and behavioral patterns. And when did you ever intervene when I was called "Moffie". F' kin hypocrisy.
DEDezertFox
Pro2,288 posts
13 Oct 2015, 15:33#77
Well, this is the one thing I cannot retrieve a quote from but I'm sure I'm not the only one who recalls your anti-Jake attacks and how you vented it through Olivier.
And the rest gave me a good laugh! If Damian can hold onto the 12 jersey at Super level for the next couple of years he will have exceeded himself. Not a centres rear end.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
13 Oct 2015, 16:02#78
DF
De Allende was by some distance the best center in Super 15 this year and he will improve because of expert coaching by Eddie Jones. I think the opposition centers will fear him more in future and they would have nightmares before games. he is already regarded as a top center by everybody but you and Mozart - so who is wrong? Wordwide rugby experts speak most highly of him - so who should we believe - them or the two of you?
Plumtree said your hero is no center - and that was proven time and time again over the last three Super 15 seasons. The Sharks were not desperate to renew his contract and seems to be happy to be rid of him. Off to Japan and then to Montpellier - you can watch how he would soon enough become a bench player for Montpoellier - only because he would be too poor to make their team starting line up.
In the race of centers - De Allende represents the winner of the Durban July Handicap - Steyn the donkey that came in last more than a 100 meters behind the winner.
DEDezertFox
Pro2,288 posts
13 Oct 2015, 16:42#79
Damian cannot play Eddie Jones rugby! He likes distributors at 10 and 12 who play flat on the line, with 12 running good decoy lines. That isn't Damian. Not even close. Damian was not even close to being the best centre in SA. de Jongh, Frans and a few others were better in SA alone, the Kiwi and Aussie centres left him for dust. As evidenced by his dire test showings.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
13 Oct 2015, 17:33#80
DF
You sounds normally a sane guy - but Fransie and De Jongh - you must be joking, you cannto possibly be serious. Both are useless in defense and worse than useless in attacking play.
The Sharks are delighted Fransie is gone and would not make him a renewal offer - Why? And Jones has already mentioned De Allende and nobody else - when he discussed his Stormers appointment. The one likely to get the chop is De Jongh, all of Johnny Kotze, Huw Jones and Kobus van Wyk are better than him.
.
