SASaffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SASaffolk Captain30,741 posts
23 Apr 2014, 18:48#42
The evidence clearly shows that JJ was not at fault at all - not even close as others have observed on here.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
23 Apr 2014, 18:56#43
The evidence shows he allowed his opposite number to make 12 metres and offload for a try, all of which could have been prevented by a standard low tackle. Whether that makes him at fault isn't even a judgement question. JJ can't tackle low, he simply can't and that makes him vulnerable in any side on tackle...case closed.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
23 Apr 2014, 19:02#44
Mozart
You spoil your own argument by bringing in De Jongh. He would never have made that tackle - it has been proven - even on Saturday - that any player easily beats him and to even suggest that he would have made a tackle under those circumstances is far fetched. Going low he would have been run over and he would never have prevented the off-load that way in any event.
By the way there were NO SHORT CHOPPING strides anywhere in evidence and your allegation that a low side tackle would have stopped the try is wishful thinking - end of story.
Mozart - we all realize that Engelbrecht has defense problems - it is not necessary to fabricate an issue like the present one to prove that. My problem is not necessarily only the defense of Engelbrecht - it is the lack of penetration he showed in attacking play. However, he is in good company in that - he is better than your fav ourite center and flyhalf whose record is even worse.
23 Apr 2014, 19:03#45
Moz he was covering two players and had only a moment to react once the ball was passed to Cooper, he didn't have time to get into a better position.
Look, I am not saying that his standard tackle is the best in the business, as I said, for me the jury is still out, but in this case I can't see an issue.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
23 Apr 2014, 19:08#46
So Oom you are saying he made 4 long strides and no short strides before he passed?
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
23 Apr 2014, 19:24#48
Within a metre or two....I rest my case.....that ball is offloaded at least 8 metres inside the 22. Do you have any clue how far a player travels with a full stride?
SASaffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SASaffolk Captain30,741 posts
23 Apr 2014, 19:58#49
I don't care how far he travelled, I just know that JJ took AC down straight away when he made contact with him
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
23 Apr 2014, 20:11#50
No he didn't take him down straight away....if he did Folau wouldn't have received the ball 15 metres out. Look you can spin this thing any way you like, if he was a natural low tackler there was no try. In fact I have never seen JJ make a standard low tackle typical of centre play. So either everybody else has it wrong, or this guy is a liability.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
23 Apr 2014, 20:39#51
Mozart
Ajley-Cooper made 4 steps from the time the tackle commenced - there was no other steps while Engelbrecht was in contact with him trying to tackle him.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
23 Apr 2014, 20:53#52
Okay lets ignore the four other steps just for argument sake. A male runner runner covers 2.7 times his leg length in a full stride. Let's say AC has a leg length of 33 inches.... so 33 x 2.7 x 4 is his distance covered according to you. That works out at 356 inches or 10 yards. Game, set and match.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
23 Apr 2014, 21:04#54
In fact AC went backwards when JJ made contact...hahaha.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
23 Apr 2014, 21:06#55
Mozart
You must be careful - first it was 12 meters 0 next it is 10 yards - what was the real distance? Definitely not what you gave it out to be to start 21205h and possibly ahlf of what you said it was. Time to give up on this one - I believe.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
23 Apr 2014, 21:16#56
No oom, I calculate 10 yards based on your erroneous claim of only 4 strides. Add the missing 4 chopping strides as AC waits for Folau and you have your 12 metres. Time for you to give up ?
SASaffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SASaffolk Captain30,741 posts
23 Apr 2014, 23:57#57
Moz, its time to concede that you got this one hopelessly wrong.......your call of course had nothing to do with objectivity and everything to do with your anti JJ........we can smell it a mile off.
Bottom line is, JJ had a great game defensively........his rushes were perfectly timed - the number of threatening attacks he snubbed out were countless. The lad is a fast learner.......he looked like a Jean or Habana in action
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
24 Apr 2014, 00:10#58
Mozart
You saw strides not in existence and imaginary 0 bit also calculate it at maximim stride for a running player 0 After Enbgelbrecht started his tackle there were 4 strides getting progressively shorter, so the calculation is somewhat deurmekaar.
Anway that is not the real point. You blamed Engelbrecht for the try - in other words you assume if he goes low there would not have been an off-load. That is where you are wrong - a low tackle leaves the players hands free to make an off-load. The only tackle that could potentially prevented an off-load is a higher tackle that would pin the players arms so that he cannot off-load the ball. That was not possible here - and as I wrote elsewhere - if it was a SA Center (with the possible exception of De Allende) with their limited abilities in ball handling skills, there would not have been one and potentially no similar try scored.
SASaffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SASaffolk Captain30,741 posts
24 Apr 2014, 00:45#60
Moz, that's your best post of the year!!!
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
24 Apr 2014, 00:49#61
Nope...the try could have been prevented by a simple low tackle. The problem was a so called Springbok centre who got his man to ground 12 metres after he first made contact. Ever see O Driscoll do that, Jean, Conrad Smith....never in a hundred games. As for your theory Oom that a low tackle wouldn't have worked. Nonsense...the non tackle by JJ is what got the Tahs behind our defensive line.
Dave there isn't a poster whose opinions I respect who thinks JJ is a reliable defender. This is just another example. You can't play outside centre and be incapable of tackling low, thus rely on your pace to get close enough to jersey grab. It's cost us already, and if HM hasn't learned the Ellis Park lesson, we will pay the price again. But with JJ being dropped after that game, I doubt he is going to be our first choice again.
SASaffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SASaffolk Captain30,741 posts
24 Apr 2014, 00:59#62
Moz you are speaking shit........AC does not make 12m after JJ makes contact with him......he makes 1m at most which is on his way to the ground. Point out the 12m that AC makes when JJ makes contact.
JJ has never been dropped, he was awarded a Bok contract.......there is no way in hell a coach could drop a player after the wonderful last test he had against the AB's.......that display with ball in hand was the best we have seen from a Bok 13 in the last 10 years.
Meyer only had one opportunity to look at Fourie, he did that and hopefully learnt enough never to select him again.
JJ's defensive stats this S15 have been one of if not the best of all the SA centres and thats a FACT......so anyone who has an issue with his defence, has no idea what they are talking about.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
24 Apr 2014, 01:26#63
Er....was JJ at 13 vs Wales....no he was dropped. Why? Because he botched a pass with a try on the line, lost the ball for a NZ try at the half and then missed Barrett for another try. He was a negative 21 points....and thus DROPPED.
As for the metres he ran hugging AC...it started just before the 22 metre line and ended just short of the vertical line marking the lineout edge. ....he'll of a long metre!
Tell me Dave, is it love?
SASaffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SASaffolk Captain30,741 posts
24 Apr 2014, 02:14#64
Crap JJ never botched a pass, it was a directed behind him by Morne - FACT
He never lost the ball, he made a great break after receiving the ball from his captain and flyhalf, thus clearly the team tactic was to attack - FACT
He missed Barrett after Jean and Morne missed him......Jean was the primary offender, followed by Morne, the inside defender - FACT
He was not dropped against Wales, Meyer wanted to have a look at Fourie
JJ never hugged AC, he got him down within seconds of making contact - FACT......your 12m is a complete and utter joke.......a complete fabrication
24 Apr 2014, 02:32#65
And if u want to get rid of rooinek, toss him a mag dedicated to toddlers winky's and you won't see the pervert for days!
I see Dave still has his go to. Hey, I know what I will do. I will just say your take on rugby is pathetic to everyone and all people reading it will believe me and that I know more.Ha ha yeah right Dave. I wish you could hear us laughing at u!
SASaffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SASaffolk Captain30,741 posts
24 Apr 2014, 02:35#67
Chicken, let me guess you to think JJ was to blame for that try......shows us how bright you are and give us your interpretation of that passage of play.....take your time dipshit
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
24 Apr 2014, 02:53#68
It was a simple shift tackle. Beale was holding up JJ. But two things made it easy....Beale passed a stride too early and AC ran a line really close to Beale. All JJ had to do was shift one metre and go low.....not lovingly embrace his man for 12 metres.
SASaffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SASaffolk Captain30,741 posts
24 Apr 2014, 03:02#69
Oh what absolute rubbish......Beale is a class attacker you have to keep an eye on......the Skelton decoy run drew in Serfontein, so JJ was left to cover Beale and AC......JJ goes for Beale, who draws him and passes to AC, JJ hauls him in and brings him down within seconds of making contact......the 12m is complete bullshit for all the see. JJ was NEVER in a position to make a low tackle on AC......for at no point was it a straight one on one situation......Moz, I thought you knew the art of what actually happens on a rugby field......given your take, I am seriously doubting this.
A clear one on one miss is the one effected perfectly by wee de Jongh on nobody Skosana of the Lions......now that is what you call a miss
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
24 Apr 2014, 04:01#70
You don't have to keep an eye on him after he passed....and he did quite early. In fact AC had to gather the ball slightly behind him, inhibiting his ability to step. But the facts are simple JJ made full contact with the runner who made 8 steps. That may be your idea of good defence, it's not mine. We can't go into any more tests with this clinging vine.
SASaffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SASaffolk Captain30,741 posts
24 Apr 2014, 04:19#71
8 steps is a fabrication......AC when down as soon as JJ made contact - FACT
I'm more than happy to go into the tests with a centre who's defensive stats are amongst, if not the best of all the SA centres this year......I cannot ask for more from my outside centre defensively......especially after the perceived weakness he was meant to have had in this department.
His doubters said he was great with ball in hand but had question marks against his defence.......he has sure put those question marks to bed this season.......the stats don't lie.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
24 Apr 2014, 04:25#72
No that's a stinking, bare faced lie...he went down after 8 steps in contact.
SASaffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SASaffolk Captain30,741 posts
24 Apr 2014, 04:31#73
No Moz you are lying......you have been since you started this thread and that's a fact. AC does not even make half of the steps you quote and that is another FACT
JJ's tackle on AC is a good one
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
24 Apr 2014, 04:46#74
Oh so now you admit he makes steps as opposed to going straight down. One onto the 22. Two and three long straight strides. Four he turns sideways to the left. Five, six and seven quick steps carrying the weight....he passes on step eight.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
24 Apr 2014, 10:55#75
Mozart
Please when did the tackle starts and what happened then? You claim the tackle started before it actually commenced and that is where you are wrong. That where you got the "two or three long straight strides" from. Step 4 and two steps afterwards was in the tackle process 0 and he was already going down when he off-loaded the ball to Folau.
Frankly I do not rate Engelbrecht as highly as Saffex does - I think he is very very average both in defense and in attacking play. However, I do not think that incident which you try and make a mountain of is really all attributable to Engelbrecht's mistake. You claim a low tackle would prevent an off-load which is the exact opposite of what would have happened - a low tackle would have made the off-load easier.
I do think that you are weakening your argument on Engelbrecht by coming up with this thread.
SASaffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SASaffolk Captain30,741 posts
24 Apr 2014, 13:26#76
Yes Moz, he makes a step or two while going down, its called forward momentum......8 steps my arse........not even close
24 Apr 2014, 16:30#77
Saffex, you ask me if I think that try was JJ's fault. I can neither answer yes nor no. I think it was a culmination of the Bulls being caught napping and the Waratahs have some freakishly good first possesion. They would have scored there against many teams. Usually teams feel each other out in the first 15 mins whilst the guys all get their first touches and find their rhythm in the game. Tahs came out swinging and Bulls didnt have the same tempo.
I think JJ did really well to cover Beale and still get to AAC but the problem starts when he got to AAC. It was the same bullshit grabbing we see from him time and time again. JJ should have had his body in mid-air propelling all his weight into AAC knee area. Chop him down right away like any centre would do. AAC gets the pass on the 22 and ends up feeding Folau roughly 12 metres from the line. At full pace, his steps are probably around a metre wide. All this time he had the attentions of JJ to deal with. He still made roughly 10m. How did he make those metres without at minimum 8 steps that Moz talks of? Were they playing on ice?
You ask if I blame JJ. My answer is no Dave. I dont blame JJ. I blame the coaches who continuously pick him at 13. The man has not disguised the fact that he cant tackle. He has openly put it on view time and time again. Thats why i blame the coaches. Heyneke Meyer saw it and he axed him for Fourie. Other coaches must wake up!
I made the call long ago. I said we have seen it before and we will see it more and more. I said that Beauden Barrett try would not be the last of its kind with JJ at 13 and one thing you must know Dave. When I make a call, it will happen! I am selective in my calls. I am not like you who will make bullshit calls on everything. I understand rugby. I played in the modern era. You did not. You played in the early 90's! Everything is faster. Everyone is bigger. Thats why you know that if we had to meet in the centres when I was 23 and we make you 23 again, you would get smashed. I am bigger, I am faster, I have more skill and most importantly, I understand rugby! I am also better looking but thats neither here nor there ;-)
24 Apr 2014, 16:57#79
Dave, there is always 2 theories to every issue with you. There i firstly what you conjure up, then there is what really happened. You can believe JJ was not well placed to tackle Barrett..You can believe this shit about Beale having him "offset" but reality is thats all bullshit..The video is above for all to see!
