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Compatibility of Science and Religion . . .

Forum » Beenos Trumpet » Compatibility of Science and Religion . . .

Jan 17, 2019, 10:40

There's a discussion happening about Science vs Religion but for some bizarre reason it's happening on the Brexit thread and I'm hoping it can move to here. I am re-posting a comment I put on there which I got from the National Academies of Science, Engineering and Medicine


Compatibility of Science and Religion

Science is not the only way of knowing and understanding. But science is a way of knowing that differs from other ways in its dependence on empirical evidence and testable explanations. Because biological evolution accounts for events that are also central concerns of religion — including the origins of biological diversity and especially the origins of humans — evolution has been a contentious idea within society since it was first articulated by Charles Darwin and Alfred Russel Wallace in 1858.

Acceptance of the evidence for evolution can be compatible with religious faith. Today, many religious denominations accept that biological evolution has produced the diversity of living things over billions of years of Earth’s history. Many have issued statements observing that evolution and the tenets of their faiths are compatible. Scientists and theologians have written eloquently about their awe and wonder at the history of the universe and of life on this planet, explaining that they see no conflict between their faith in God and the evidence for evolution. Religious denominations that do not accept the occurrence of evolution tend to be those that believe in strictly literal interpretations of religious texts.

Science and religion are based on different aspects of human experience. In science, explanations must be based on evidence drawn from examining the natural world. Scientifically based observations or experiments that conflict with an explanation eventually must lead to modification or even abandonment of that explanation. Religious faith, in contrast, does not depend only on empirical evidence, is not necessarily modified in the face of conflicting evidence, and typically involves supernatural forces or entities. Because they are not a part of nature, supernatural entities cannot be investigated by science. In this sense, science and religion are separate and address aspects of human understanding in different ways. Attempts to pit science and religion against each other create controversy where none needs to exist.


Now, before this goes any further, does anyone disagree with that and why?

Jan 17, 2019, 11:15

Thanks for making this thread Rooi, I think we have derailed the other one enough. I'll bring my response here: "As for the NAoS quote, I agree 100% I am pro science."


Jan 17, 2019, 11:28

That article sums up my thoughts on the matter perfectly. I can add nothing. 

Jan 17, 2019, 11:56

Well the article contradicts the thread heading....it should not be versus, making it two opposing forces is the first mistake...and I know it was probably not the intention, but it's a trap we all tend to fall in way too often.

Jan 17, 2019, 12:48

Fixed the heading.

Jan 17, 2019, 15:19


Jan 17, 2019, 10:06

"Dawkins is not a scientist,  he is a Christ hater hiding behind science. Humanist activist and arsehole of note. Should have been Dickins."

"A scientist is someone who conducts scientific research to advance knowledge in an area of interest.

In classical antiquity, there was no real ancient analog of a modern scientist. Instead, philosophers engaged in the philosophical study of nature called natural philosophy, a precursor of natural science."

Dawkins is known more for his atheism than for his science. He is obviously a great scientist in his field, but the moment he puts on his "there is no God" hat, he is not speaking as a scientist any more, then he is an atheist trying to prove that there is no God. A scientist lets the facts do the talking without having preconceived ideas about where the facts should lead. Using your scientific achievements to give your views more gravitas in a different field is dishonest and unscientific...hence my comment. A blatant exploitation of science...a sin a real scientist should not commit.

And Blue, I am not trying convince anyone of anything, I reacted for being called a child abuser. I was not the one who brought religion into the thread.


Jan 17, 2019, 10:12

Sorry Dradd i am not attacking you personally.

I am pointing out a view of the harm RELGION ( not just yours) does to children.

I am  commenting on one aspect and not saying you are a cruel and abusive parent in all aspects. 

So you support the act of criticizing religion to be outlawed and made a criminal offense now?

It is still a free world in most countries and I am free to speak just as you are so sorry if that offends you.

Go on youtube and there are thousands of videos attacking Atheist and their views but I dont get offended I just watch to see if they make any good points ( they dont).

I think your outrage is caused by the fact you cannot logical refute the information against you but you just cannot let go of the brainwashing from your childhood. You are a perfect example of my argument.

Jan 17, 2019, 10:22

Draad, by divorcing himself from religion and not wearing a "god hat" as you call it, Dawkins is doing exactly what science demands of any self-respecting scientist.


You would do well to read (and understand) this excerpt from the National Academies of Science website:

Compatibility of Science and Religion

Science is not the only way of knowing and understanding. But science is a way of knowing that differs from other ways in its dependence on empirical evidence and testable explanations. Because biological evolution accounts for events that are also central concerns of religion — including the origins of biological diversity and especially the origins of humans — evolution has been a contentious idea within society since it was first articulated by Charles Darwin and Alfred Russel Wallace in 1858.

Acceptance of the evidence for evolution can be compatible with religious faith. Today, many religious denominations accept that biological evolution has produced the diversity of living things over billions of years of Earth’s history. Many have issued statements observing that evolution and the tenets of their faiths are compatible. Scientists and theologians have written eloquently about their awe and wonder at the history of the universe and of life on this planet, explaining that they see no conflict between their faith in God and the evidence for evolution. Religious denominations that do not accept the occurrence of evolution tend to be those that believe in strictly literal interpretations of religious texts.

Science and religion are based on different aspects of human experience. In science, explanations must be based on evidence drawn from examining the natural world. Scientifically based observations or experiments that conflict with an explanation eventually must lead to modification or even abandonment of that explanation. Religious faith, in contrast, does not depend only on empirical evidence, is not necessarily modified in the face of conflicting evidence, and typically involves supernatural forces or entities. Because they are not a part of nature, supernatural entities cannot be investigated by science. In this sense, science and religion are separate and address aspects of human understanding in different ways. Attempts to pit science and religion against each other create controversy where none needs to exist. 



Jan 17, 2019, 10:59

“It was Protestants that eventually broke the shackles of the Catholic Church (Aka the Taliban)- to pick up from where the Ancient Greeks left off. Rejection (Protest) against absolute truth of religious dogma, and the revival of democratic values.”

Protestants are not Christians? Is that what you’re saying? It seems like that.

Jan 17, 2019, 11:09

Sader, I am well aware of the harm can be done by religious people.

And I know you are not attacking me personally...and although I differ with you on this topic, I have no problem with you personally and would gladly have a few beers with you if the opportunity should ever present.


"So you support the act of criticizing religion to be outlawed and made a criminal offense now?"

Whatever gave you that idea?

"I think your outrage is caused by the fact you cannot logical refute the information against youbut you just cannot let go of the brainwashing from your childhood. You are a perfect example of my argument."

What information against me? I am not as narrow minded as some on here seems to think.


Rooi,

"Draad, by divorcing himself from religion and not wearing a "god hat" as you call it, Dawkins is doing exactly what science demands of any self-respecting scientist."

I don't mind him doffing the "god hat". My problem is with him donning the "there is no God" hat. He should stick to science and not venture into religion, using the tools of science. He is aggressively anti-God, that is my problem with him. Just because he is clever does not mean he is always right. A scientist should not have an agenda, he clearly does.

As for the NAoS quote, I agree 100% I am pro science.

Jan 17, 2019, 16:08

Jan 17, 2019, 15:45

Last comment on religion - before transferring to the new dedicated thread.


@Ceradyne- Revival is cultural enlightenment- or Rebirth. Also known as the Renaissance. This rebirth was like being born again- away from the dogmatic static believes of the Church.

 Protestants are moderate or more left-wing Christians, or even agnostic in their beliefs. Over the years Protestants have become more agnostic- or even more atheist.

The movement or split of the Christian Church was inspired by the Renaissance. (Cultural Revival)- when records of the Ancient Greeks were re-discovered in the East- and taken back to the West. 

The original Greek records of knowledge were possibly burnt by the Catholic Church, except for keeping some areas within the Church like Rhetoric.
So the Renaissance, and then the Protestant/ was inspired by the ancient Greeks- the inventors of democracy and capitalism. As it stands Protestant heritage counties are on average much smarter than Catholic countries- from ancient Greek knowledge, not Jesus

Jan 17, 2019, 23:30

Mao, Stalin, Hitler (neo pagan if anything), Pol Pot.....there are your godless regimes in the 20th century. Seems atheists are the the most avid takers of human life in the modern world.

Jan 18, 2019, 00:12

Check your facts, Hitler and the Pope were good mates. Hitlers master race, the Third Reich and more were based on his religious beliefs.


Look beyond what Church Propaganda says- and take in multiple sources of information to formulate your own opinion


Third Reich: An Overview | The Holocaust Encyclopedia


https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/third-reich-an-overview
Hitler's dictatorship rested on his position as Reich President (head of state), Reich ... The Third Reich's aggressive population policy encouraged "racially pure" ...

People also ask

Jan 18, 2019, 01:11

Check your facts....here is the lead article on Wiki:

'Adolf Hitler in 1927, rehearsing his oratorical gestures; photo by Heinrich Hoffmann, Bundesarchiv Adolf Hitler's religious beliefs have been a matter of debate; the wide consensus of historians consider him to have been irreligious, anti-Christian, anti-clerical and scientistic.[1] In light of evidence such as his fierce criticism and vocal rejection of the tenets of Christianity,[2] numerous private statements to confidants denouncing Christianity as a harmful superstition,[1] and his strenuous efforts to reduce the influence and independence of Christianity in Germany after he came to power, Hitler's major academic biographers conclude that he was irreligious and an opponent of Christianity.[1] Historian Laurence Rees found no evidence that "Hitler, in his personal life, ever expressed belief in the basic tenets of the Christian church".[3] Ernst Hanfstaengl, a friend from his early days in politics, says Hitler "was to all intents and purposes an atheist by the time I got to know him". However, historians such as Richard Weikart and Alan Bullock doubt the assessment that he was a true atheist, suggesting that despite his dislike of Christianity he still clung to a form of spiritual belief. '

And just for your edification, I don't read Church propaganda.

Jan 18, 2019, 07:30

I love this subject.

Religious faith, in contrast, does not depend only on empirical evidence, is not necessarily modified in the face of conflicting evidence, and typically involves supernatural forces or entities. Because they are not a part of nature, supernatural entities cannot be investigated by science. In this sense, science and religion are separate and address aspects of human understanding in different ways. Attempts to pit science and religion against each other create controversy where none needs to exist.

I just want to add something here before I say my bit.

Firstly ... there are many different religions or faiths out there ... of which the majority of them are based on superstition and traditional horseshit.

Worshippers of lifeless stone idols ... of sacred cows ... of heavenly bodies like the Sun and our Moon ... crocodiles and serpents ... of random images fashioned out of wood ...and of course of our very own forefathers. There are even those who worship mother Mary.

I have no interest in these non deities ...  and religion to me proves nothing, other than the stupidity of mankind.   

I hope the point of this thread is to uncover a little more substance than milking Betsy on Saturday ... and worshiping her reverently the day there after.

Science has developed the world as we know it ... it’s broken the unexplained down by using an assortment of theories and formulas ... and what once was beyond us, can now be explained through these tests and experiments. This covers a wide range of things ..the mysterious light in the dead of night ... or why it’s possible for a 100 ton hunk of metal to fly overhead to a land far away.

Science has established itself as the go to method of clarifying anything and everything, and it’s expected to deliver every time. When it fails, and it has many times over, then it’s been widely decided that what it was trying to uncover, doesn’t exist.

However ... there are certain things that cannot be measured by these scientific tools. We have this vast knowledge and yet it seems so limited at times. We aren’t even able to bring rain to a drought torn area ... science has failed us here. How many more failures can we place at science’s feet?   

A select few have been shown an open door to a different dimension ... to bear witness ... and to report what they’ve seen to the masses. Contact has been made by these deities, both good and evil and yet it’s been laughed at and labelled absurd by the majority.

One would think that in this day and age, all aspects of life would be celebrated, no matter from which dimension, but this is not the case. What they do not see ... and do not hear ... they do not believe. Science has apparently disproved it all ... or rather failed to prove any of it, and so it doesn’t exit. Those of us who have been given sight ... given an ear ... even experienced contact firsthand  are mocked and ridiculed by the uninvited.

Science cannot prove life ... nor can it explain where it goes to after it’s time here has come to an end.

Science can give you the biological breakdown of everything we see ... and yet cannot restore life to any of it. NOT ANY OF IT. That power has been retained exclusively by another.

So to answer your question, Redneck ... yes, I agree ... it is two totally different aspects of life, with two totally different sets of laws that rule each ... and science isn’t capable of explaining any of it. In the end, science is totally incompetent ... and we need another tool.

Jan 18, 2019, 07:30


Jan 18, 2019, 08:23

This line of argument is so stupid. Religion neither makes a man good or bad. There are countless evil religious men, and countless evil atheists or non religious men. There have been countless evil acts committed in the name of religion. Religion is not the deciding factor. If it were, why would there be a need for Jesus (or Mohammed, or whoever) to forgive the sins of Christians?


Evil men are evil men. Some of these evil men land in positions of power, where they can manipulate others, and some come into positions of extreme power, where they can manipulate masses. Each evil man has his own identity, his own history and his own course to evil. The details of weather the person is religious or not is just incidental. The reality is that religion plays no part.

Anyway, for those of you blaming atheism for evil men, please enlighten me, who's God created these men, knowing the course their lives would follow?    

Jan 18, 2019, 08:28

"I just want to add something here before I"


You okay Klown? Sounds like you were abducted mid-sentence.

Jan 18, 2019, 08:33

I think the key here is that science is the study of all things natural while religion is the study (or belief) of all things supernatural . . . so don't use one to try to prove or disprove the other.


Pseudoscientific concepts like Intelligent Design should be flushed down the toilet 

Jan 18, 2019, 09:08

Thanks, Redneck ... yes ... my PC keeps switching itself off ... I need to get it looked at.


Jan 18, 2019, 09:29

Klown, maybe get that other tool . . . the one that's going to replace science . . . to fix your PC.


Science is the study of nature and the laws of nature. You can't blame the study of nature for a drought. Blame nature. Blame temperatures, precipitation and ocean currents if you think it'll do you any good but don't blame the study of those phenomena.

Blaming science for a drought is like blaming geometry when your roof leaks or blaming geography when you get lost.

Jan 18, 2019, 10:10

Don't be absurd, Redneck ... why would I do that? The IT man's just down the hall.

No ... I'm not blaming science for a drought ... are you deliberately being obtuse now. I'm saying it cant bring relief ... AT ALL ... and as much as you would want it to provide the answers for everything ... it doesn't ... not by a long shot. 

An example ... your science has apparently enabled us to date some artifact accurately ... um ... well ... at least to the nearest 100 millionth year ... lol!!! That sounds more like a coin toss to me ... or a thumbsuck.

By all means ... trust in your science ... I'll just look at it as a tool with a lot of limitations ... and that the theories that spring from it's failures are no more than fabrications from desperate and clueless people.

 

Jan 18, 2019, 10:16

"We aren’t even able to bring rain to a drought torn area ... science has failed us here."


How has science failed us?

I'd like to be able to turn invisible and fly around the place . . . has science failed me?

Jan 18, 2019, 10:30

  1. This line of argument is so stupid. Agreed

  2. Religion neither makes a man good or bad. Religion not, but if the New Testament is right, then the Spirit of God will transform you...and if you follow the teachings of Jesus with your heart, you will not be able to do EVIL. Wrongs yes, but not evil. That pesky conscience? God's voice. 

  3. There are countless evil religious men, and countless evil atheists or non religious men. There have been countless evil acts committed in the name of religion. Correct. "in the name of religion". Using religion as a tool of control. I cannot speak for other religions, but show me anything in the teachings of Jesus that can lead to evil. Jesus warned against false prophets

  4. Religion is not the deciding factor. If it were, why would there be a need for Jesus (or Mohammed, or whoever) to forgive the sins of Christians?
  5. Evil men are evil men. Some of these evil men land in positions of power, where they can manipulate others, and some come into positions of extreme power, where they can manipulate masses.
  6. Each evil man has his own identity, his own history and his own course to evil. The details of weather the person is religious or not is just incidental. The reality is that religion plays no part.
  7. Anyway, for those of you blaming atheism for evil men, please enlighten me, who's God created these men, knowing the course their lives would follow?  
From 4 to 7.

According to Christian doctrine, the world has been corrupted by evil forces, Satan in particular. Jesus gives redemption from that corruption and protects from evil, but he does not force his redemption on anyone, you must accept it.  If that is true, atheists would be corrupted easier, because they have no protection. Satan is also no fool, so he would infiltrate religion and try and corrupt things there first. So what is wrong and what is right after 2000 of active sabotage by Satan? Who knows?

I try to stick to the basics.

I believe in good and evil, order and chaos. I believe Jesus walked the earth as the son of the creator and showed the way towards true happiness. Everything added by man to the simple message of Jesus are probably corruptions by the Dark Side.

Jan 18, 2019, 10:39

"I believed Jesus walked the earth as the son of the creator . . ."


"Believed"? Past tense?

Jan 18, 2019, 10:56

Fixed, thanks.

Jan 18, 2019, 12:00

I suspected it must have been a typo but I thought I'd check anyway just in case you'd read a book or something and doubled your IQ suddenly.

Jan 18, 2019, 12:01

"The Jews believed Jesus was not God, but merely a man- if he actually existed in the first place ". Given Jesus was a Jew, should this be considered? If so, then Jesus is a false God. How can all other Gods be written off as false except Jesus, if the Jews themselves do not accept one of their own? 

There is extensive evidence of people existing thousands of years ago such as Aristotle, Plato, Cleopatra etc- however, nothing for Jesus - outside of the bible.

If Jesus never lived, then he could not have died for thou sins.

Jan 18, 2019, 14:39

Draad ... the majority of folk out there need to believe in some higher being. It brings them comfort. The thought of turning to this being is what keeps them worshipping.

The reality of it all is that there isn't a being out there that has your interest at heart. They are all self serving ... including Jesus Christ and his Father.

We are taught as children to put our trust in him ... and when we suddenly lose a loved one to cancer, we're told to accept it, as it's His will and he has a purpose for us all.

This is where I fall out the bus.

A loving father would never give his child cancer ... not for any reason ... and he would definitely not call it an act of righteousness.

To think that many out there return to the Father for healing ... the very person who inflicted them in the first place ... it leaves me totally gob smacked.

Is he my friend? Is he my ally? Is he on my side? Does he truly love me?

Then why does he constantly throw curses and diseases at me and those I care for?

Time has taught me much ... and trusting in a god of any sort is a complete waste of time.

Their inability or rather unwillingness to see their promises realized does not mean that they do not exist.

They do ... they're just self serving arseholes.

   


Jan 18, 2019, 14:39


Jan 18, 2019, 15:05

CC, this seems to be a change of heart for you? In the past you have been quite a steadfast Christian. Has something changed, or have I just missed something? 


DB, I am just being argumentative here, so don't take this personally, but I'd like to point you to the interviews with Richard Kuklinski on Youtube. He was an assassin for the mob in the US. In the interview he discusses weather or not he regrets any of his murders (It is estimated that he killed between 100 and 250 people). He refers back to a night where he was about to kill a man that was crying and praying to God. The man asked if he could have some time to pray before Kuklinski killed him. He says it was one of the few occasions where he indulged such a request. He said the man could have half an hour to pray. If God intervened, he would spare the man. Long story short, God didn't show up and he killed him.

You say " Jesus gives redemption from that corruption and protects from evil" 

Clearly he does not. 

Jan 18, 2019, 15:17

Well Well Well

Something we fully agree on CupCake

I posted about this and discussed this many times in the past, possibly before you even joined us here, but my sentiments were basically the same as yours here

Jan 18, 2019, 15:37

You say " Jesus gives redemption from that corruption and protects from evil" 

OK, I know this will sound stupid. The redemption is inward. Call it inner peace and the ability to accept things and be content with the things you can't change. Protected from becoming evil and doing evil things. The inner peace to accept that you are going to be assassinated? 


I remember CC accusing God as being a tyrant before, so nothing new. Didn't know DA felt the same...as for them being self serving....Calvary anyone?


Sharkbok: "There is extensive evidence of people existing thousands of years ago such as Aristotle, Plato, Cleopatra etc- however, nothing for Jesus - outside of the bible."

Horse sh!t (said with a Russian accent)

Jan 18, 2019, 16:39

So no coincidence that the 4 great genocides of the 20th century....Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot and Mao all occurred under godless regimes? Could they have occurred under a modern (that excludes Islam) country with freedom of religion?

I doubt it.

Jan 18, 2019, 17:10

"Didn't know DA felt the same..."

I have voiced this opinion many many times on here, normally in Beeno's posts

I thoroughly respect anyone else's religion, and I would expect them to respect whatever my beliefs are as well.

I have never labeled God as a tyrant, but I have always and consistently questioned how he could be this "ever loving God", when he allows so much disease or destruction that affects good "Christian people" and everyone else.

I was once told that God punishes these people with these diseases and all other ailments or destruction, or horrible deaths because of the life they have lived and that they have sinned.

Then I asked the question about how this all loving God would allow a 6 month old baby to die a horrific death, and that baby has not even had the conscience to think a bad thought, lie about anything, or perform any horrendous act that God needed to punish.

So, why would this all and loving God even allow that child to be born, only to put it through an incredible amount of pain, torture and suffering, and die a horrible death, and put it's parents through a nightmare I could never even fathom or explain

How can something so incredibly innocent, have to experience so much, in such a short space of time in this life, and not have done a single thing wrong to upset this loving God.

How could a loving God allow that woman to experience the joy of carrying that child for 9 months, only to rip it away in such a very barbaric manner. 

How could a loving God allow Hitler to be born, and not rather make him a still born baby, which would have absolutely saved millions of lives in the process

I could go on but you get the picture

Jan 19, 2019, 00:22

DA, Well, I get your poing from a human perspective, but free choice should allow for the wrong choice too. I'm not buying into the Hell, fire and brimstone thing...if you ate talking about the creator of the known universe, we are all les than a spec of sand, yet he sent someone to be with us and teach us etc. Jesus showed the way. 

What we know about God has been corrupted just as much as what we know about science. All will be revealed soon. Even Rooi might be redeemed against his own wishes. Go and read the proverb of the prodigal son.  God is Justice and justice is fair.

Jan 19, 2019, 02:35

Draad, why did the bible say that the sun revolves around the world- and burn people who disagreed?  The same crew that now claim to be scientific...

The bible is meant to be a definitive gospel- but it is rewritten over the years- to suit the current era. Even the books of Mathew, Mark, Luke and John etc disagree over their storytelling of the same events- which one do you choose. The answer is which one you want to. There are so many different Christian bibles that also vary in their scriptures.

Just like any other religious person (of any religion) you claim your opinion to be the one true God. How can you be sure that your God is the true creator- when there are so many religions, and even people who do not follow a religion- many of which are the smartest people in the world- (e.g. Einstein). You recently claimed that Dawkins is not a scientist- but Rooineck provided information that he is one of the most recognised scientists - judging by the most universities giving him honours. This was only a few weeks after you claimed that Rooineck should not argue with someone that teaches at Oxford- a teacher- that has little to no respect in the scientific community when compared to the likes of Dawkins.

Are your beliefs true- or is it just the brainwashing you've received at your local church that you confuse with faith. You could go read a proverb in the Koran and it will spout the same story- about selling the afterlife if you do XYZ- and believe- and make donations etc.

The Jihads believe that everyone must convert everyone to their religion, and you claim everyone must convert to your religion to be saved (even Rooineck). The point is it is "your" religion- your reality, your values and beliefs- not anyone else's. 

The same reality that can be twisted to suit anything you want to believe- and then confuse gospel with your own interpretation. It is self-delusion, but you are the centre of it all with the universe revolving around you. You have assumed that God will save you- but will "probably" also save Rooineck- making you superior to Rooineck.. 


Image result for islam jokes

Jan 19, 2019, 07:48

Shark, if Lenox is only a teacher, then Dawkins is only a teacher too. 

Jan 19, 2019, 07:52

Yes, BlueBok ... I know a man, a devoted Christian, a farmer, who decided to take his family and a few friends to their natural damn on the farm for a picnic and some swimming. They had a foefie slide (sp) rigged up from the tallest tree.

He hooked up the trailer to his tractor, loaded up the family etc and off they went.

His youngest son (7 years old) was sitting on the mudguard as he had countless times before while they plodded slowly through the rough terrain. He slipped and landed under the tractors rear tyre.

He was squashed like a bug.

I know that accidents happen ... but I found it very difficulty not to question many, many passages within the word that speak of protection for those who love God.

I was met with silence and so extended my middle finger.


 

Jan 19, 2019, 08:02

Go and read my post where I elaborated on my previous statement of him not being a scientist....

I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, I'm responding to the fools who are telling me I'm stupid for believing in a creator.

You know very little about Christianity, only the vitriol spewed by aggressive atheists. You don't even believe in the existence of an historical Jesus and you thought Christmast celebrated His crucifixion. You claim to adhere to logic, but yet you argue with the same logic as Young Earh Creationists...if you don't like the facts, you simply ignore them, yet you call other people stupid???

Jan 19, 2019, 08:44

Draad ... I am a little surprised to hear that you are so devoted to Him.

I've been there ... for many years ... but as time went on I saw that I had become one of many making excuses for this useless God and His empty promises.

Calvary is just another empty promise. We will enter His kingdom by his grace and His grace alone. In other words, it's how He feels on the day. There is nothing we can do to gain His favour.

I have a question for you ... have you ever given any thought to the significance of your soul?

Have you ever wondered why all these beings are fighting among themselves to possess it?

Why is it so sought after?

We go to church and are encouraged to give Him our soul.

Usually He takes whatever wants ... and yet it seems that we for once have the right to decide on what we do with our soul.

I think I'll hang on to mine for a little longer ... at least till I now why it's so valuable.

Good luck with your quest... I hope you see Him for what He is ... a bully. 

 
 

 

Jan 19, 2019, 08:48

Just ignore SharkShit ... he's totally clueless.

He wants to argue on a subject he knows nothing about ... much like his rugby.


Jan 19, 2019, 09:08

Interesting POV...as for my devotion. ..well it isn't really what it should be according to mainstream Christianity...I'm still trying to make sense of it all, but for one thing, I think the whole "spiritual " thing is a lot less supernatural than most people think. Creation, for one, wasn't a magic wand thing...it was a gradual thing....a natural thing. Creation was natural,  humanity made it supernatural because they didn't understand it. 

I don't believe in a fairy god, sitting somewhere on a cloud...that would be daft.:D

Jan 19, 2019, 09:32

Everything that is, seen and unseen, was created ... and anyone who claims that some mystical chemical reaction brought it all about is an idiot.

It was put together by a supernatural being, but as is the case with Him, he did it naturally over time.

This planet has been around for many cycles ... a do-over so to speak. Different forms of life have ruled here, as is evident by what we dig up from time to time ... from an age/s long before we were even a twinkle in His eye.

Our existence is just his latest version and I'm sure we won't be His last attempt at creation.

Our version began as is written in Genesis 1:1.

The earth had already been formed eions ago ... but was covered by the deep waters that rose during the flood of Lucifer.  It too wiped out all life, just like the flood of Noah did, but this one covered the globe and spared no one.

God All Mighty may be a lot of things but the one thing He isn't ... is boring.




Jan 19, 2019, 10:18

To think about God in human terms is like an ant thinking about humans in his terms. We are doomed to only understand Creation in a limited incomplete way...we will always strive to know it all, but we never will. Only fools think they know it all...fools on both sides of the spectrum. 

Jan 19, 2019, 21:59

Draad, do you believe in things like Adam and Eve and Noah's Ark?

Jan 20, 2019, 02:28

Related image

Jan 20, 2019, 07:34

Rooi, Adam and Eve migh havet bern real people, but then they weren't the only people. Much more likely a parable for brevity's sake. 

I don't believe in a world wide flood. As for The Ark...some sort of vessel with a lot of animals, but definitely not all species on Earth... but that kind of details are not important. The Bible is not supposed to be a science textbook. 

Jan 20, 2019, 07:40

Redneck ... we all know that you've rejected the Bible in it's entirety ... and that it's no more than a compilation of fairy tales in your opinion. 

There are many, many folks out there that view the Bible in the same light. 

Like you, they too are desperate to convince us all of the farce ... and so in come their "experts" ... with their theories ... and a whole lot of ... "could it be's" and "perhaps'" and "I put it to you's" ... and, and, and ... then when they're done, they leave .. with the Bible still intact.

It doesn't take them long to put another team of "experts" together ... with a fresh approach ... and when they're all finished pounding their fists on the podium, they too leave ... and so it's been going on for hundreds of years ... and guess what ... the Bible remains still to this day.  

I must say, I never could understand your passion to disprove the existence of God. What drives you guys to persist with this folly? Is the belief in someone / something so abhorrent that your need has become a life's mission to some of you?

It's a fight you cannot win ... no matter how many thumbsuck theories you bring. It's all based on conjecture.

I have had some interesting discussions with people on this subject and am therefore hopeful that that your ... "Draad, do you believe in things like Adam and Eve and Noah's Ark?" ... (an obvious attempt at baiting) ... has a fresh and interesting intended direction. That it's not the usual  ... "do you honestly believe that they managed to get two of every kind of creature into this small little row boat" ...  cause if that's the best you can do then rather leave it. 




Jan 20, 2019, 08:11

Draad ... if you read the word you will see that it clearly states that God created man, male and female and told them to go forth and multiply.   

In other words ... this "man animal" for lack of a better word, was already established as a living herd or horde before Adam and Eve even existed.

From this herd, one "man animal" was selected ... who then received the breath of life from God, which transformed him and he became a living soul.

This quickened "man animal" was then put to sleep and from him a rib was removed to form woman.

When Cain was abolished for murdering his brother, he went out into the wilderness ... and came across various tribes of men. Where did these men come from, you may ask?

Well, they're all part of the original creation.

The Bible has a vast amount of information. All one needs to do is look properly and ask for guidance and understanding. Sometimes He's gracious enough to bring you revelation. It's life changing.

Most of it is hidden though ... for obvious reasons ... and so an assortment of theories spring up, confirming the ignorance of the godless.     

   

 

Jan 20, 2019, 17:19

Adam and Eve the original sin. This is why man had to make church donations to gain forgiveness. "Saved a wretch like Cleancut", please pass the donations tray....



Jan 21, 2019, 08:23

CC, you confuse me. I don't know what else to say about it. 


As for beliefs, I believe everyone is free to believe whatever they want, but I also believe they should look at the facts. Never just blindly believe anything. You must question, and you must not just accept superficial answers. Find the facts, or get as much detail as possible to formulate an opinion of your own. Just going on what other people say or what some book says is feeble. Other people almost always have an agenda or at the very least, have never interrogated the facts themselves and can therefore not be relied upon to give an opinion. Especially when it comes to religion, which is possibly the most important decision of ones life. Blind loyalty in a concept, whatever that concept may be, and not questioning what is right in front of you, is what has led man to his most appalling points in history. The crusades, Nazism, suicide bombings for Allah, Rwandan genocide, Stalin's genocide, continued support for the ANC, Justin Bieber etc etc. Just remember the absurdity of blind loyalty in history, when you defend something based on emotion or faith and not on the best evidence available. 
 

Jan 21, 2019, 09:43

"Like you, they too are desperate to convince us all of the farce ..." 


Klown, I read stuff like this and I actually wonder if you're not confusing me someone else . . . or if your comprehension skills are on a par with Baboon-ou's.

I have never ever tried to force my beliefs (or should I say, lack of belief) on anyone else. On the contrary, I've stated several times that I don't expect anyone to agree with me and I don't actually want anyone to agree with me.

Whether you're a christian, a muslim an atheist or a jew, we all have different ideas and beliefs when it comes to the unknown . . . how did it all start, what is our purpose in this life and what happens to us when we die. I don't thnk any two people share the same beliefs on those matters which is why I have a rather dim view of christians and other religious groups all holding hands and singing kumbaya pretending they're all on the same page when - scratch beneath the surface - and their beliefs are actually worlds apart.

If you have me pegged as some kind of evangelical atheist trying to get other people to believe what I believe (or what I don't believe) then you have very poor comprehension skills or you're just plain stupid.

Jan 21, 2019, 16:50

"CC, you confuse me. I don't know what else to say about it." 

You and me both Blue

CupCake seems to be confusing himself

If you read a few of his posts he doesn't seem to properly explain his thought process

Maybe he should resort to rather drawing us some pictures.

The Bible has a vast amount of information. All one needs to do is look properly and ask for guidance and understanding. Sometimes He's gracious enough to bring you revelation. It's life changing

Good luck with your quest... I hope you see Him for what He is ... a bully. 

Usually He takes whatever wants ... and yet it seems that we for once have the right to decide on what we do with our soul.

Sometimes he is gracious?, but he is also a bully?, and he usually takes whatever he wants?, but he sometimes (if he is in a fantastic mood that day) he brings you revelation?, and it's life changing.....?

Cool, makes perfect sense

Jan 21, 2019, 23:16

Well it does make sense in an odd kind of way...I don't see it like that, but can understand some do.

Jan 22, 2019, 00:44

If you do not make the bus into Heaven at least the Devil will have a warm place with music for you in hell. You can always rely on Lucifer. Ask Hansie who is the captain of the Hell Cats cricket team whom are undefeated ...


Image result for hansie cronje jokes

Jan 22, 2019, 10:32

Fully agree, BlueBok.

No doubt you've given it proper thought and decided on a road to take. In the end it's your choice and whatever the cost of your decision is yours to bear ... as it is with us all.  

Blind faith or as you put it, "blind loyalty", is a dangerous thing. People take advantage of it and you usually end up a lot worse off in the end.

I was invited to a gathering back in the 90's and what transpired there changed my life. It's not a matter of me ever having a decision on the subject. Something dramatic happened to me and I can never return to the way I saw things. It's just not possible.

Since then, the question "does God exit?" is no longer something I ask myself. It became more like "who is this guy and how close will He allow me"?

What a journey.

Now ... I'm a little pissed off with Him ... but it doesn't change the fact that one day I will give an account of my life to Him ... and whatever He decides ... will be my fate.

He knows my heart ... and every thought of mine is like a trumpet call before him, so there's no hiding anything from him.

Unlike Beandip, I am not trying to persuade you or anyone else to become a follower of Christ.

I will however attempt to expel the nonsense that there is no God.

Whether He's a good guy or not, is up to each individual to decide ... or in your case not to even bother. No disrespect intended.



Jan 22, 2019, 10:37

DumbAss ... confused? Really?

Like you He has a distinctive personality, with likes and dislikes. He can be incredibly kind and gentle ... and other times a very stubborn hard-arse.

Does that help?


Jan 22, 2019, 11:25

Well Redneck ... then I must be stupid.

You are the author of this thread ... not so ... and it's not the first time that this subject matter has come up with you. In other words, you have an agenda. 

What is it?

Is it to give me your views ... and then to listen to mine ... patiently? To chat about how it all started ... or what our purpose in life is ... or what happens to us when we die ... or maybe even about the existence of God?

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahahaha!!

Bullshit!!

You don't believe in anything other than ... we live, we die ... and that's all she wrote. You've made that abundantly clear ... so why revisit the subject ... unless ... you have unanswered questions ... or ... that the absurd theories you've put together and relied on for so long in an argument, somehow seem rather pedestrian now ... boring ... silly ... so yesterday ... and let me guess ... you're looking for new material, right?

No?

Of course you want to convince us of your absurd theories and yes, I have you pegged correctly ... so please stop pretending innocence. 

You are argumentative ... always have been ... and I cannot see that changing any day soon.


Jan 22, 2019, 11:48

DumbAss ... confused? Really?

Like you He has a distinctive personality, with likes and dislikes. He can be incredibly kind and gentle ... and other times a very stubborn hard-arse.

Does that help?

Ok, so to be very clear here.....you have given your life completely over to a bully...…..

Jan 22, 2019, 11:53

None of us ever know that we are dead or alive and sleeping, when we do fall asleep every single night

You are never conscious of that very fact, that you are just sleeping...….. you could have died in your sleep and never woken up, and you would not know the difference.

So, it's fair to say, none of us will know as a matter of fact, when we have died, or are dead

Jan 22, 2019, 12:13

Rooi argumentative? Nooit!:D

Jan 22, 2019, 12:36

What??

So DumbAss ... what you are saying is that you believe in some sort of existence after the grave.

Maybe you never recovered from your sickbed. Maybe you went on to the happy hunting grounds ... totally unaware.

It certainly would explain all the shit you're talking.


Jan 22, 2019, 12:36


Jan 22, 2019, 12:48

What??

So DumbAss ... what you are saying is that you believe in some sort of existence after the grave.

What shit are you talking now CupCake…….. I am merely saying that you will not know when you are dead.... period.

Unless you know of some conscious way that your mind is going to tell you that you have died or are dead......by all means CupCake, explain that your loss of existence will be relayed to you in some way when you have died in your sleep...…..maybe your brain will wake you up a second before you die, to advise you that you are about to die?

By the way, you yourself have said that you worship and serve a bully, and that that bully will ultimately determine your fate.

What person..... with any sound mind and working brain...... would want a bully to determine their ultimate fate?

You have serious issues CupCake, and I thought it was your addiction to running with your dogs to achieve an orgasm...…. Sjoh….. was I wrong on that.



Jan 22, 2019, 15:42

What person..... with any sound mind and working brain...... would want a bully to determine their ultimate fate?

by all means CupCake, explain that your loss of existence will be relayed to you in some way when you have died in your sleep...…..maybe your brain will wake you up a second before you die, to advise you that you are about to die?

Are you there CupCake?

Jan 22, 2019, 16:28

oh brother ... do I really feel like going through this simple little issue with a retard like you ... ?

It's like trying to teach a toddler not to shit in his shorts.

I just don't have the patience for it today ... so ... nah ... I'm really not in the mood to explain things to you, DumbAss ... chances are you won't grasp any explanation I offer anyway ... which means that I would have to dumb it down even further ... and probably again after that one zooms over the top of your head.

I'm starting to realize why the pizza counter assistant job you have is actually a good find for you ...


Jan 22, 2019, 17:05

Lmao

That reply gave me a good chuckle...… hehe, thanks CupCake

Not surprising really, considering what you actually believe in life...….

Running is better than any sex...…..oh wait, and your saviour is also the guys that bullies you, but he is also the same guy that you trust implicitly, to decide your fate

LMFAO


Jan 22, 2019, 17:21

DA, I don't think trust has anything to with it. I think he (CC) accepted things as they are (how he perceives them to be). No use in denying reality because you don't like the facts. 

Luckily my views/hopes are a bit less negative than you two. Not too worried about the detail. Something in the line of Order vs Chaos. Law vs Lawlessness...with a bit of undeserved Grace thrown in. I think the largest problem is that most people have a warped idea of fairness...and the laws are not to their liking, so they reject everything.  The most people also think a democracy is fair and lawful....not by a long shot.

Jan 22, 2019, 18:47

I met up with the Devil a few weeks at a local nightclub. He also said God is a bully and always punishing people such as throwing him out of Heaven when he was an angel.



Jan 22, 2019, 19:11

How I perceive them to be? That's an interesting thing to say?

What do you mean by that?

You seem to think that I have chosen to look at God negatively. 

I see Him for what He is.

Jesus said "by the fruit of the tree, you shall know them" ... he then continued by saying "a good tree cannot bare bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bare good fruit" ...  and so I look at God's fruit.

Take the general consensus regarding free will. We all have it ... right?

And yet when we look back at what transpired with Pharaoh during the days of Moses, we see that Pharaoh wasn't afforded the right to make a single decision on his own. His heart was hardened every time. It was decided for him ... and then he was punished for it and so were countless thousands of his people. 

What does that tell you?

How about Judas and his supposed betrayal? Do you think he had a choice? And yet he too was punished for it ... punished for another persons deeds. Does that seem fair ... righteous? 

Look at how He treated Job. It was a wager between two parties. His entire life was torn apart because of it. His entire family murdered. Does that sound like a loving Father? 

or how about ... when He killed the servant for trying to prevent the Ark of the Covenant from falling off the wagon? Should the servant have let it fall ... let it smash to the ground and roll down the hillside? Was killing the servant justified?  

I suspect that you may be one of the many millions out there, that looks at God as righteous ... as holy ... a gentle, kind ... a loving father ... because tht's how you were taught as a child. 

The stories you've been told have mislead you, Draad. Oen you eyes and see for yourself ... or don't and keep living blissfully unaware of the truth.

Go look at Exodus 4:11 and see what it says there. Would a loving father do that? Would you? I know I wouldn't ... and if I did, I certainly wouldn't go strutting around, claiming to be righteous.

Ignorance is bliss they say ... and it's true. One sleeps better at night when you're unaware of the terrible truth. 



Jan 22, 2019, 20:25

Examples of the death penalty[edit]

The Bible prescribes the death penalty for the following activities, among others:

  • Murder[13]
  • Adultery[13]
  • Bestiality[14]
  • Rape of a betrothed virgin[15]
  • Male-male sexual intercourse[16]
  • One man picked up sticks on the Sabbath, he was taken into custody because a punishment was not known. The LORD told Moses that the man in custody must be killed. This particular crime and punishment is isolated case law.
  • The man and woman when a man meets a betrothed woman in town and sleeps with her. But if it is a case of rape where out in the country she called for help and no one heard, the death penalty only applies to the man[17]
  • A woman who is found not to have been a virgin on the night of her wedding[18]
  • Worshiping other gods[19][20]
  • Witchcraft[21]
  • Taking the LORD's name in vain or cursing his name[22]
  • Cursing a parent[23][24][25]
  • Kidnapping[26]
  • Rebellion against parents[27]
  • Having a spirit of divination[28]

Jan 22, 2019, 21:28

CC, we all perceive things differently.  I didn't say you were wrong, I said I was hoping for a bit more positive outcome. I can't blame you for your views...I wonder about some things too, but who am I to judge? What is the bigger scheme of things and where do we fit in? We know too little to really have an opinion that counts for anything meaningful. 

Jan 22, 2019, 22:50

God works in mysterious ways. He let his own son be hanged for peoples future sins that had not even been committed yet. An insurance policy so to speak... 

There is also no mention of Jesus since Easter over 2000 years ago. Is it possible that God sent Jesus to hell for everyone's sins? Maybe God should try hanging out on a cross to see what it is like, instead of letting Jesus take all the hardship...  Or even being here when the Great Flood drowned most of life here on earth, without a boat ticket. Is God a good Christian, what ever that is?


Jan 23, 2019, 08:35

DA, I don't think trust has anything to with it. I think he (CC) accepted things as they are (how he perceives them to be)

Db......How can trust have nothing at all to do with it, if you are allowing this "bully" to decide your own fate?

Surely you are trusting him to make the correct decision regarding your fate because you are leaving it completely in his hands?

Jan 23, 2019, 08:41

Christianity often hides behind free will to explain the bad deeds of humans. God gave the rapist free will, it was the rapist that decided to rape. Well explain this to me. Where is God's free will for the rapist's victim? God did not give the victim free will not to be raped. Free will is a cop out for when Christians can't justify what God has allowed evil men to do. 

Jan 23, 2019, 11:11

Free will is a cop out for when Christians can't justify what God has allowed evil men to do.

Spot on blue

As I said in my previous post.....where was this free will for all those millions of people that Hitler killed?

If he was just a still born baby at birth, it would have prevented the worst massacre in human existence, but no, Hitler's mom's free will and right to have a baby live through childbirth, took full preference over the millions of people who were killed by that baby boy, later in life.

That is one hell of a just and loving god you believe in......

Jan 23, 2019, 11:22

Not too long ago in the states, a mother left her newborn baby in the car, and it died of severe heat stroke and exhaustion.

It was a simple slip of the mind, which resulted in devastating consequences for everyone involved...…. a sad...sad incident, which nobody would ever wish on any parent.

Is this god punishing this woman / mother, for something she did?

If so, why punish or kill the baby?

Or.... is this god punishing this baby for something it did?

Surely the baby has done nothing wrong because it has not had the conscious to think a bad thought, lie about anything, steal anything, or even say anything wrong, and ultimately does not even have the capacity to do any action at all, due to it being a new born baby, so it could not conceivably sin at all, by that age.

So, what happened here, and who did this god punish......did he punish the mother, by killing her baby, or did he punish the baby that does not have the capacity to sin?

This god could have very easily made the mother forget something in the car, that she urgently had to use at work, which would ultimately remind her and help her find her baby in the car, still alive.

Mmmmmmm this really is some just and loving god you worship 

Jan 23, 2019, 11:33

The reverse. Why has God not punished Mugabe? Surely he deserves punishment. Yet at 93, or however old the bastard is, he still lives in the lap of luxury, with his family all prosperous, while countless Zimbabweans suffer or have died because of him. Your example of the woman in the car, what could she possibly have done to deserve that punishment, well how much more evil could Mugabe possible have committed? And yet he goes unpunished. Yeah he'll pay in the afterlife....pull the other one!  

Jan 23, 2019, 12:16

Fully agree with you blue

It's the same example you are using, just in a different context, but I still fully agree with what you posted

Essentially, why does a just and loving god allow such cancerous and murderous individuals to kill so many millions of innocent people.

Hindsight is a phenomenal bitch, but let's say we had the ability to 1 000% know for certain that the next baby that was left in a car to die, was without a doubt, going to grow up and become the next Hitler, and kill millions of people...……. I honestly don't think that many people would even bat an eyelid if they knew this up front, and that baby did perish at such a young age, to save the lives of millions of others later on in life.

This is pure make belief, and we obviously don't have that ability, so again, I ask, why are all these innocents being punished, whilst the evil bastards roam free..... some, like Mugabe, till over 90 years of age.

I still try and reason or understand how it could ever be perceived to be a just and loving god, because there is absolutely no ways that anyone can justify to me, that the interests of one individual like Hitler, surpasses the needs or the interests of the millions that he tortured and killed.

Jan 23, 2019, 12:36

So you are angry at God for the evil deeds men are doing? So you are of opinion that a just God should intervene and prevent all evil? There are evil, so there can be no God? Or God is evil?


These are honest questions, I'm not trying to be argumentative.


Edit: The movie: "The Shack" explores some of these questions. It does not give the answers, but gives a different perspective. A bit long, but worth the watch...? A bit melodramatic.

Jan 23, 2019, 13:39

Db, if god gives all people free will to choose their own path in life, to ensure that they receive their redemption from their god, and that they live to make sure that they end up in heaven...……. what happens to the people that did not, and never had the opportunity to exercise their use of that free will, that this loving god gave to everyone?

I have mentioned already, about babies dying a few months after being born, from some horrible cancer, suffering and enduring an excruciating slow and painful death before their parents eyes every day..

What evil deed has man done in this instance to make this father, mother and baby suffer through this?, did man create and cause the cancer to kill that baby?...….no he didn't, this god created this cancer, not man..... this god chose that particular baby to get this disease, not man...…..but why..... this baby also had zero free will, because if it was given the choice to be born without any disease, clearly it would choose not to.

As to your question, should god step in to intervene and prevent evil..... damn straight he should

I say this because the people on the receiving end of that very same evil you speak of, did not have the free choice or will that your god apparently gives to everyone, to prevent that very same evil, from affecting them and their loved ones...…... for instance, in Hitler's case...… Hitler executed those Jews, and in my opinion, used god's hands to do it, because god could have stopped it all from happening by just ensuring that Hitler never made it to an adult age. 

So, you can't have free will only working from one direction here Db and say, oh, he was just the evil one here, what about the free will per individual to avoid that evil to begin with.

Jan 23, 2019, 14:19

Well on free will. It's not free will to do what you want, it's free will to either serve God or not...or say that "there is no God" Like some do. It's a choice...and like you rightly say, some does not have the opportunity to make it, but then they did not reject God either. I don't know all the answers.

I ask again. Do you believe in a God, but don't like him, or do you not believe in a god?


Jan 23, 2019, 16:41

I am not shy at all to say that I do not believe in a God

I cannot find any reason at all, why any God, or more specifically, this ever loving God, would ever let something that he personally created and loved so much that he sacrificed his own son...….. suffer unimaginable pain, through no fault of their own doing.

If all these individuals were given the opportunity to avoid having this fate befall them, and they then chose the wrong option or failed to heed the danger signs presented to them, then even that I could understand to a certain degree, but to just sit back and watch one single individual, that they themselves allowed to survive at birth.... massacre millions of complete families at will, and justify that by free will..... it's complete bollocks.

Since God apparently knows all, he would have known well beforehand what Hitler was capable of, so why allow it to happen?...….and Hitler is just one of thousands of examples I could use, but you get the picture

Even if the millions of people Hitler killed were all sinners, Hitler must have also been a sinner, so how does God give this one person the authority to decide the fate of those millions of people when they are all equally sinners in the eyes of God?

Lastly, how does a 6 month old baby decide if it believes in God, so that it can go to heaven instead of hell?

A just and ever loving God does not behave in this manner, in my humble opinion

Jan 23, 2019, 17:41

OK, got it.

As I understand it, CC believes in God, but does not like Him much....for the same reasons you don't want to believe in a God...which is quite rational (by both of you).  Logic applied by both, different conclusion? I suspect that most people's un-belief start out because of the perceived unfairness of it all. 

PS, you get the free will thing wrong. It does not try to justify anything. It means that it's your choice to follow God or not. He will not force worship. How does that justify Hitler? What am I missing here?

Jan 23, 2019, 17:53

PS, so EVERYTHING is just chance? All the order in the universe...the periodic table,  the laws of physics, the logic in everything, pure chance over 13 billion years?..nothing more? And when the lights go out, nothing, no Higher Purpose,  no Right and no Wrong, just: "It is what it is, deal with it!"? How sad? So why was it wrong for Hitler to kill millions? We are all animals in the end?

I don't think I want to live in that world...it sucks.

Jan 23, 2019, 19:47

Lost of people believe in the possibility of "a" creator, but they do not believe in a Jihad/Christian totalitarian God that seems to punish people for pleasure.


When religious people (of any religion) speak about "their" God they confuse their beliefs with facts. You may assume your beliefs are facts, but that does not mean they are correct. 
They speak about "a" God as if he the God- and not your version of "a" God. 

All religions claim they are "the" God's chosen people,  they claim that their religion is the path to "a" heaven. The Jihad's want to convert everyone- as do the Christians. Both claim to offer the exclusive ticket into heaven.

Einstein of Jewish origin - said the idea that Jews are God's people is ludicrous. Most other religions are just bastardized versions of the Jewish religion.  In South Africa, Apartheid used the bible to justify racial division. Jesus was made into a white person. 

It is self- delusion. 
If there is "a" God, or "an" afterlife- it is logical to assume that one's actions would determine the next stage. Not clinging to some fantasy religion that was designed for simple people thousands of years ago. 
Religion is man-made. Religious people never want to accept that morals are more important than the religion itself- because they fear the afterlife and they want to believe they are better than what they are through brand association. The Jesus brand, that makes me a nice person.

It is also possible that no God exists. A universe creating itself out of nothing-  is less random than a God creating itself out of nothing. If God has existed forever, the universe itself can just as easily have always existed. 

The human mind will try to understand something. If it is not capable of doing so logically, then superstition is the next conclusion. Like children are more likely to believe in the Easter Bunny than an adult. 




Jan 23, 2019, 23:58

Well Dradd we are animals, I thought that fact was obvious. We are no different to any other life form on this planet and we are all related if you go back far enough.

Why does there need to be a higher purpose for us, is it not possible that this life is your purpose? 

There is right and wrong in this world but these things are decided by people not a god. And no not everyone pays for the bad they do but no one said life had to be fair.

Is there a higher purpose for all living creatures, when you get to your heaven are there other animals there or just people. If not why are people the only ones given an after life?

As to how the Universe came into being and how it all works, nobody knows but just making up stuff is not the answer. I dont understand how you cannot accept a natural answer to everything that at least has some supporting evidence for some of the theories put forward but accept an idea of something far more complex with no evidence at all to support it. 


Jan 24, 2019, 13:58

"PS, you get the free will thing wrong. It does not try to justify anything. It means that it's your choice to follow God or not"

Oh I see, so I automatically have it all wrong and not you?

Ok, simple question then...….where does a baby go when it dies, Heaven or Hell?.........because we both know that it never had the consciousness to decide if it follows a God or not?

"So why was it wrong for Hitler to kill millions? We are all animals in the end?"

So the next little girl that gets viciously raped by a human animal is also just a 7 year old animal, so all good with the world?

Jan 24, 2019, 17:24

"So why was it wrong for Hitler to kill millions? We are all animals in the end?"

Exactly my point. We aren't just animals. There is something wrong. With doing evil deeds.

As for babies going to Heaven and Hell? I don't know, but according to Christian dogma, humens are not suppose to judge. That would be Jesus at the second coming...and if His life is anything to go by, I wouldn't be too worried about the little children going to hell.

Jan 24, 2019, 22:35

there is something wrong with doing evil deeds?  Really, you need to read the bible to learn that?

Is hanging your own son not an evil deed?  

Jan 25, 2019, 06:04

The Romens crucified Jusus.

Jan 25, 2019, 06:45

The free will thing is an interesting twist. Carbuncle's god is a bully, he never rescued the kid sitting on the mudguard.

So let's suppose god has that level of responsibility for each human life.....why is it fair that some have more than others?

In this view everybody should be the same and live the same life.....that would be fair, but it also takes away any purpose for human existence.

And the moment you relax that rule bad things happen to some relative to others. Children die, it's heartbreaking and inexplicable, but a natural consequence of a life of chance.....a life where one human can make a difference vs we are all clones living exactly the same life, presumably in a universe without time....because even living at different times is unfair.

All religions hold out the prospect of divine intervention, but not the guarantee at an individual level. No religions absolve man from his responsibility for his own well being.....the parent is responsible for the poor child on the mudguard.

Jan 25, 2019, 07:47

A little girl was once diagnosed with a very rare disease called ROHHAD, which affects weight gain, body temperature, hunger and even breathing.

So far, only 75 people in the entire world have been diagnosed with this disease.

She later developed tumors and had to have a pacemaker put in as well, when she was 10 years, but she did survive.

What makes this very interesting, is that she has an identical twin, with the exact same DNA....who was not afflicted in any way, with this disease, at all.

Who made what decision, to decide which of these twins, got this disease, and not the other?

Devine intervention?

Luck of the draw?

The uncertainties of life?

A sinner in a previous life?

Natural order of life?

Too many unanswered questions...…. but at the same time, how is it just?


Jan 25, 2019, 08:58

Moz, what you are describing sounds a lot more to me like a completely random sequence of events. The sort that would be expected if there was no divine order, but rather random events based simply on chance and the laws of science (known and unknown). Even your explanation of "divine intervention" sounds a lot more like a random bit of luck, than an actual divine intervention. Very bad and very good things happen to very good Christian people, and very bad and very good things happen to the most evil people. That just seems entirely random to me. Much easier to explain if there were no God playing a role, because why would he intervene for an evil person, and not a good person? And why do these events seem so balanced between the good and the bad people?. The child on the mudguard you seemingly blame on the parents, but every parent, even you, will at some point have been in a position where their child was in some sort of danger. That heart stopping moment where you thought "shit that was close!" Still random chance will predict that sometimes these situations will end well, and sometimes they won't. Again, pointing to random luck or bad luck, and no divine order. As for a purpose for human existence, well, because we are self aware, we automatically want the best we can have, so with or without God, we all have a purpose. Even animals have a sense of purpose to survive, which means they are automatically driven to eat and to reproduce. 


All that said, what you wrote about one human making a difference vs us being clones has given me food for thought. As I have said many times before, I really just don't have the answers, any new perspective is of great interest to me. You are one of the only Christian posters, maybe DB as well, that does not just regurgitate the rubbish you are fed, but actually has a different insight into God or Christianity. For someone who is very unsure of religion like me, a person like Beeno is the worst possible advocate for religion. You guys at least offer a counter balance to posters like him.  

DA, a lot of what I have said above regarding Moz's post is also relevant to yours. It is impossible to explain why bad things happen to innocent or good people, when looking at them from the perspective of a loving and divine entity. Hence explanations such as "God move in mysterious ways" and "all things happen for a reason" or "just accept the bad things that happen on earth, because the paradise of heaven awaits and that is all that matters". It is much easier and more logical to assume that the reason these things happen is entirely random. With no divine intervention, and only the laws of nature and science to govern such events with zero emotion attached.     

Jan 25, 2019, 09:29

Who is to say that people who experience hardships in this life right now, were not maybe very bad people at some other previous time or in a previous life, and that this is their punishment now, in this life, for that past behavior or actions?

Nothing comes from nothing, so there must be a creator of some sort..... you cannot just magically materialize out of nothing like some "Big Bang" and end up on some very remote planet in this universe, amongst billions of stars and planets...... and learn how to survive and evolve to become a thinking and constantly updating species.

Too many unanswered questions......


Jan 25, 2019, 09:35

Hi Blue. Putting aside  the idea of a personal God for a moment. If you look at the size of the universe, then matter is a very small part of that...and if you look at the laws of physics and gravity, it need to be very specific for it to allow for the universe to exist in the first place, never mind the existence of a little blue planet with life on it.

And then there is this little thing, called thermodynamics that needs getting around. If the universe did not exist like it is now for eternity, science starts to have difficulty explaining the apparent order.  

"The second law of thermodynamics says that when energy changes from one form to another form, or matter moves freely, entropy (disorder) in a closed system increases. Differences in temperature, pressure, and density tend to even out horizontally after a while."

We should strive to understand creation, without God, but at the same time we should not try to explain God away.

Jan 25, 2019, 10:16

True Db, that is why I referred to "science known and unknown". 


"We should strive to understand creation, without God, but at the same time we should not try to explain God away."

With this I agree 100%. I truly try to be neutral and have my opinions based only on the facts as I see them. There are some fundamental holes in the story of the universe that are much more easily filled by the existence of a God, than any of the other theories currently out there. So for me the jury is still out, but I don't think it is any secret which way I am leaning currently. If there is a God, he has a hell of a lot of explaining to do.  

Jan 25, 2019, 10:58

Surely the universe is not infinite?

Do you ever get to the point in the universe, where you cannot go any further?

What triggered the beginning of everything, and if that was triggered by something like a God or a creator, where did that God or creator originally come from, and so on and so on?

A god or creator cannot have always just existed, it is impossible, it had to have materialized or been produced by some being, and if that is the case, then what created the being that preceded that one?

Jan 25, 2019, 11:33

DumbAss missing the entire point of this thread . . . surprise surprise!


Science is the study of nature. Religion is the study or belief of the supernatural. Don't use one to try to prove or disprove the other. That's the premise of the OP and here we have DumbAss trying to use science to prove the existence or non-existence of a god.

Sigh . . .

Jan 25, 2019, 12:09

DA, just for the sake of argument, if one does believe in God being almighty and the creator of all things, then it is a simple explanation. God created everything...including the start of time. If time is a created concept, and our understanding of it was given to us by God, that would explain why he could exists outside of time and therefore outside our realm of understanding. Humans simply cannot comprehend a reality without time.  


To clarify what I am saying, think of a computer game. It was programmed by a programmer. The laws for a character within the game do not apply to the game's human programmer in real life. 

Assuming of course...you believe in an almighty God.  

Jan 25, 2019, 12:48

DumbAss missing the entire point of this thread . . . surprise surprise!


Science is the study of nature. Religion is the study or belief of the supernatural. Don't use one to try to prove or disprove the other. That's the premise of the OP and here we have DumbAss trying to use science to prove the existence or non-existence of a god.

Adding another dimension to this ever expanding discussion is never a bad thing, except when it involves you..... only you would ever complain about that.

The fact that you ridicule my post just shows how very narrow minded and naïve you really are Piss Mint.

I have seen your previous theories on here, posting this article and that, quoting this link and that, but we all know, that not one single person on this planet can ultimately prove anyone wrong or correct on anything relating to religion or the universe, because nothing has ever yet been conclusively proven as fact, so if you want to call everyone else dumb and throw your own childish  insults and push your own unverified agenda's and theories down their throats, then go ahead, but you are the only stupid one in this equation, not the person who doesn't agree with you or who posts something interesting.

Jan 25, 2019, 12:53

Very interesting perspective blue...….. food for thought indeed

At least when you post something, it is not to just try and insult someone or score some silly little noddy points in front of your fellow posters like Piss Mint does.

I am open to any kind of discussion and point of view, but not with idiots like Piss Mint, because history has shown, it is his view or no view at all, because only his view is a matter of fact correct in his eyes.

His poor family must go through hell with this moron

Jan 25, 2019, 12:58

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only ...


https://biblehub.com/john/3-16.htm
God loved the people of this world so much that he gave his only Sonso that

For God So Loved
15that everyone who believes in Him may have eternal life. 16For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him.…

It is quite clear that the bible says God gave his only son. Gave or sacrificed his own son. This was all planned from the outset, even Jesus knew that he was going to die beforehand. 

Jan 25, 2019, 13:07

Science is the study of nature. Religion is the study or belief of the supernatural. Don't use one to try to prove or disprove the other.

You only say this because this is what you have been taught from a very young age, and you don't know any different.

If you were raised and told that these were collectively together, you would never know the difference at all, and don't tell me you would, because then you are bullshitting everyone.

Everything that you believe and don't believe in your life has been created by man...… it is all man made........and nobody else.... dictionaries, tv shows, bible, magazines, documentaries.....etc etc

You have absolutely no idea at all, nor do you have any proof whatsoever, that they cannot be used to prove or disprove each other, because that is what you have been taught and learnt.

You only know what you have been taught by a human being, from a text book, generation after generation

That pales in comparison to what we don't know at all, and might never know about what exists out there.

But you carry on and beat that little drum of yours and call everyone else stupid except you.

I don't and never have accepted things as fact, so whilst you might not agree with that, that still does not make you correct and me wrong, and if it does, then provide the verified proof in this thread.

Jan 25, 2019, 13:35

Uh-oh . . . I seem to have set DumbAss off on one of his self-pitying and sanctimonious tirades again. Sorry everyone.

Next time he clearly misunderstands the purpose of a thread I'll just shut up.

Jan 25, 2019, 14:02

So in other words, you cannot prove I am incorrect and that you are correct.....just as I expected.....what a sorry excuse you really are.

Just like all the Trump shit you post...… you will never see any reason on a topic, if that person's point of view on that particular topic does not agree with your own...… you are quite pathetic

That is what makes you sooooo different to the other posters on here Piss Mint, because they at least can take in another point of view without being overly dismissive or outright rude because it does not line up with their own beliefs, like you do everyday on here.

Jan 25, 2019, 17:00

Thanks for that thoughtful response Bloo. I'm not trying to persuade anybody of anything.....none of us know, nor do any of the scientists. Science can make perfect sense of our history from a certain point.....but there is always something before that. The essence of existence...the absence of the great nothing.

The nature of god, if you accept that concept is a different debate. My point above is that fair divine intervention is like the ultimate form of socialism....everything should be the same for everybody. But the corollary is human effort has no value.

A third topic which has been discussed is the effect of religion on humanity....seen as very negative by some. And there are many examples of this. But that ignores the civilizing and motivating effect of religion on a world of savage tribes. Ignores the huge impact it had on Greece, Rome, Spain and England....the effect it had on architecture, engineering, language, music and exploration.

An enjoyable thread.

Jan 25, 2019, 18:00

Spot on, some tend to judge Christianity harsh, because they look at it with modern time glasses.  Back when it all started, it was unheard of radical concepts that changed the world for the better. It got corrupted along the way, but it cleansed itself a few centuries ago...and will again. Dismissing it as inconsequential superstition is plain ignorant shortsightedness ...is there even such a word?

Jan 25, 2019, 19:22

I would argue that other forms of religion contributed more than Christianity, these were religions before Christianity. (Before Jesus was born- and before the Christian Chuch sold the afterlife like an insurance policy).  The dark ages followed once Christianity became the dominant religion-  and only when the old ways were rediscovered during the Renaissance did things really start to move forward again). 


It is debatable if Christianity added any positive value. Monolithic religions, in general, appear to create conflict between different sets of people.

Jan 26, 2019, 07:19

Well, if you look at the evidence at hand. Where would you rather live? The Western World, shaped by Christianity, or China, Japan, Korea,Vietnam, India, the Middle East? I agree that some mistakes were made, but it wasn't all bad and most of the alternatives were worse.

And it's not the religion that creates the conflict, people causes conflict, religion is just a tool to try to justify it.


Jan 26, 2019, 11:16

Democracy and capitalism were invented by the ancient Greeks, not Christianity. The ancient Greeks contributed more to Western civilisation than Christianity. 

If you are going to talk about evidence- try looking at the facts.  Christianity became popular around 300AD, and shortly thereafter cultural decline happened- i.e- the Dark ages

""

Dark Past of the Middle Ages. The ancient Greek and Roman civilizations were remarkably advanced for their time. ... The Middle Ages are often said to be dark because of a supposed lack of scientific and cultural advancement. During this time, feudalism was the dominant political system.7 Sep 2015""

Migration period | European history | Britannica.com

https://www.britannica.com/event/Dark-Ages

Jan 26, 2019, 12:23

So why are you living in England and not rather Japan?

PS, Europe only became democratic about a hundred years ago. Democracy has got nothing to do with it and is probably making our society worse in some regards.

Jan 26, 2019, 15:23

I would rather live in a democratic country like England or America etc, counties that have systems based on the ancient Greeks. 

Democracy is good, except in third world countries where there is not a majority middle class. What other systems have been better than Democracy. 

Feudalism, communism, socialism are all worse. Perhaps the most defining characteristic of the West is democracy and capitalism.

One thing though is the Eastern World is catching up with the West. Capitalism is taking off all over the world, albeit it is mixed with different political systems.

When I say other religions- I mean religions that are western - before Christianity. 


TimeLine

1. Before Christianity- Progression (Ancient Greeks & Ancient Romans)

2. Christianity becomes popular-  the world goes backwards. (Dark Ages)

3. Renaissance- the world starts to progress again by discovering records of Ancient Greeks and Romans. (Cultural Enlightenment).   Christianity splits into Protestant and Catholics. Protestants are less religious and less right wing. They question absolute truth and favour relative truth. Some become agnostic or atheist such as modern day scientists. 




Jan 26, 2019, 15:24

"So why are you living in England and not rather Japan?"


Ummmmmmm . . . the language barrier maybe?

Duh-huh!

Jan 27, 2019, 14:46

Duh-huh!!!?? So if it wasn't for the language barrier, you would prefer Jap or China?...Funny, I always took you for a Thailand kinda guy...regardless of the language barrier. 

Jan 27, 2019, 15:36

No dumbo, I'm not saying I'd rather live in China or Japan, I'm quite happy where I am.


You are the one trying to imply that Sharkbok chooses to live in England because of religion when there are many other reasons he might choose to do so, the language being one of the glaringly obvious ones.

Nothing more precious and indignant than an evangelical christian!

Jan 27, 2019, 16:15

Nope, that's not what I'm implying at all. I'm saying the West turned out a fantastic place to live in and that Christianity played a major part in shaping it. You and Shark are saying it didn't...or somehow made things worse....I'm saying the countries without Christian history aren't doing much better....

PS, the obvious language barrier isn't too much of a deterrent keeping people from coming to the Western World...warts and all.

Jan 27, 2019, 16:23

The assumption you are making is Christianity has made more of an impact than the Ancient Greeks and Romans.

If Christianity never happened the West may have been another thousand years ahead. 

You also seem to talk down China and the East. 

Their economies of the East have the highest GDP- much higher than the West. They have also been through their troubles with communism etc- but they are on an upward curve. As modernisation happens, things we associated with the West - are becoming standard in more places (not a Beeno Globalist conspiracy though). The standard of life is getting much better in these countries- as capitalism grows in these economies. This has nothing to do with the religion of the East- it is capitalism and modern values. If these countries were becoming Christian and growing- then there could be a link but that is not the case.

They certainly have more of a future than Africa. Their middle class is growing- whereas in Africa the have-not majority is growing.


Jan 27, 2019, 16:38

  1. I don't talj down The East, I just prefer the West.
  2. The ancient Greeks and the Romans were part and parcel of our history...just like Christianity....I'm not the one discounting that, you are the one marginalizing Christianity.  And China and Japan and some others did not have Christianity and they are not a 1000 years ahead of us. Japan and China afe cool, bit IMO the West are better and the west had Christianity and they did not. Could the west have done better without Christianity? Maybe,  but we would never know. What we do know is that what we did have lead to the pinnacle of human endeavour . .Christianity and all. Deal with it. It is what it is.

Jan 27, 2019, 16:47

Evangelical??? Whoosh!!!

Jan 27, 2019, 18:19

Christianities major contribution was the dark ages/middle ages

The Renaissance ended the domination of the Church, and things started to progress again. 
It is pretty simple really when being objective. 
 
The Renaissance was a fervent period of European cultural, artistic, political and economic “rebirth” following the Middle Ages. Generally described as taking place from the 14th century to the 17th century, the Renaissance promoted the rediscovery of classical philosophy, literature and art.

Jan 27, 2019, 20:04

Yes, Draad is talking down the East because he's a brainwashed and ignorant fool who doesn't know any better and does what his dominee tells him to do.


Japan must be one of the best places to live on the planet but there are two problems . . . Japanese is a difficult language to learn (if you're my age) and the Japs don't exactly embrace foreigners.

Japan is actually one of the least ethnically diverse nations in the world and if you live there then you're either very good at baseball/rugby/football or else you have very specific skills that they can utilize.

If I had to pack up and leave South Africa then I'd choose Japan in a heartbeat over the USA . . . but I'd try the UK first . . . because I have a passport and because that is where my ancestral roots are.

New Zealand would be my next pick followed by France if I was prepared to brush up on my entry-level French and I'd definitely choose Japan if I was prepared to learn a brand new language . . . and a very different and unique culture.

I'd consider Australia as well but I'd have to visit there first because my current impression is that they're the Yanks of the Southern Hemisphere.

Jan 28, 2019, 11:00

Japan

UK

New Zealand

France

Australia

Glad to see that even at your age now Piss Mint, you know that you would have to spread your bets on which country would actually allow a twat like you, to live amongst their own.

LMFAO

Jan 29, 2019, 10:48

Here is a very good question asked by Friedrich Nietzsche:


"Is Man one of God's blunders or is God one of Man's blunders?"

One of those has to be true. I'm definitely with the latter.

Jan 29, 2019, 11:08

More quotes from Nietzsche that are relevant to the topic:


"The Christian resolution to find the world ugly and bad has made the world ugly and bad"

"All sciences are now under the obligation to prepare the ground for the future task of the philosopher, which is to solve the problem of value, to determine the true hierarchy of values."

"In Christianity, neither morality nor religion come into contact with reality at any point."

"Morality is the herd-instinct in the individual"

"Extreme positions are not succeeded by moderate ones, but by contrary extreme positions."

Jan 30, 2019, 11:55

Science has now very reluctantly proved the existence of God. The religion that is definitely not compatible with science is atheism.which has become an irrational dogma that is a laughing stock!

Fancy thinking the Universe created itself out of nothing. Bwahahahahahahahahahahha oh my aching sides! That is why God so correctly calls them FOOLS.

Jan 30, 2019, 12:09

This is purely a guess...…. but I'm guessing that this science that you are referring to here, is the exact same science that is constantly proven wrong, time after time

Jan 30, 2019, 12:42

Baboon-ou, I realise what I'm about to say will not penetrate the immensely thick bone matter that surrounds your puny little brain but I'm going to say it anyway . . .


Firstly, science has proved nothing of the sort. The whole point of this thread is to show that the study of nature (science) cannot be used to prove or disprove the supernatural (god) and vice versa . . . but that very elementary and basic premise seems to have flown high over your flat sloping forehead.

Secondly, atheism is not a religion, it's the absence of religion.

Jan 30, 2019, 13:25

"The whole point of this thread is to show that the study of nature (science) cannot be used to prove or disprove the supernatural (god) and vice versa"

What a bullshit statement to make !

You state this as fact and say this only because this is the only thing you know...… and were taught..... period

You have no proof whatsoever at all, that science could not now, nor one day in the future, assist humans, in confirming this stupid theory of yours or anyone else's...…... you are merely surmising what you have read, seen and been taught, by a person or a book.

If you have the proof..... post it here now, or rather just shut up Piss Mint


Jan 30, 2019, 14:31

Goodness me, how stupid is this imbecile? 


Does someone else want to tell him to read the OP because if I do it'll just lead to a lot more melodrama and foot-stamping.

LMAO!

Jan 30, 2019, 14:46

Oh you stupid twat

I don't care what is posted where and when, I am replying to your statement in your post above


Jan 30, 2019, 14:48

Jan 30, 2019, 11:55

That is why God so correctly calls them FOOLS.


---------------------------

A favourite line of a happy-clappy Christian is to quote God calling people Fools. It must be amazing to have God on your side in an argument. :D. God said this, and God said that. Self delusion my friend is when you start to confuse your own opinion with a God.

Jan 30, 2019, 14:51

God thinks I'm a fool? Ummmm . . . doesn't that reflect on him?

Jan 30, 2019, 16:27

A favourite line of a happy-clappy Christian is to quote God calling people Fools. It must be amazing to have God on your side in an argument.  :D. God said this, and God said that. Self delusion my friend is when you start to confuse your own opinion with a God.

Well said Sharkie

Jan 30, 2019, 16:30

"God thinks I'm a fool? Ummmm . . . doesn't that reflect on him?"

In hindsight, yes...… but in your specific case, no, not at all...… it just means that he agrees with all the other posters on this forum

Jan 30, 2019, 16:45

Well, it was actually David's line.

Jan 30, 2019, 19:21

David was a fool, if he actually existed. 

Jan 30, 2019, 19:28

Well, I'm sure Goliath will be happy to have been killed by a fool.

Jan 30, 2019, 19:34

David cheated and used a cattie (catapult) weapon, or was a slingshot bolas style of a contraption.  A bit like using a gun. Does it really matter how big someone is if you use a gun? 

Goliath was also not exactly the smartest pencil in the box - if he even existed. 

Interestingly David is also a character in the Koran, showing that Christianity and Islam are originally cut from the same cloth. 

Jan 30, 2019, 20:01

Wait....

Jan 30, 2019, 20:01

...for it.

Jan 30, 2019, 20:01

No, it's not cut from the same cloth...it's got two different perspectives of the same events.

I have my beliefs and if by some odd event, someone can proof to me 100% that there is no God...or afterlife or Hell, or whatever, I will still strive to live by the same Christian principles. It's got a Natural Order to it. You can mock it all you want and you can ridicule things till the cows comes home, it won't make you right or me wrong. It reflects on something much deeper and that is something you lot does not seem to be able to grasp. It ties into the second law of thermo dynamics and a certain Mr. Fibonacci's constant too. Einstein got it, but you lot seems to know better somehow.

Jan 31, 2019, 00:19

Image result for christian jokes

Jan 31, 2019, 05:38

kumbaye Woosh

Jan 31, 2019, 08:29

"Interestingly David is also a character in the Koran, showing that Christianity and Islam are originally cut from the same cloth."


Not just David . . . so was Adam (Adam), Noah (Nuh), Moses (Musa). Aaron (Harun), Enoch (Idris), Abraham (Ibrahim), Lot (Lut), Ishmael (Ismail), Isaac (Ishaq), Jacob (Yaqub), Joseph (Yusuf), Job (Ayyub), Solomon (Suleiman), Elijah (Ilyas), Jonah (Yunus) and pretty much anyone else you can think of from the Old Testament. They are all part of Islam and Judaism as well as Christianity.

Same book, different spin. 

Jan 31, 2019, 09:03

"You can mock it all you want and you can ridicule things till the cows comes home, it won't make you right or me wrong"

"that is something you lot does not seem to be able to grasp"

"Einstein got it, but you lot seems to know better somehow"

Ok Db, so according to you, you can't be right and we can't be wrong, but according your post above "Our lot" are clearly wrong and you are correct, because "Our lot" cannot grasp it, and we know better than Einstein...…

And yet you want to bring up the mocking and ridiculing of others

Oooook

Jan 31, 2019, 09:11

On a more interesting note, here are a few basic things that, until now, science has still not been able to explain.

Why people yawn

Why the Chorioactis geaster mushroom still only grows in Texas and Japan and nowhere else

Why Saturn's north pole has a swirling, hexagon shaped storm

Why humpback whales have gone from being solitary creatures to living in super groups

Why the trees are curved in the "Dancing Forest" in Russia

Why dark matter is not like regular matter

Scientists understand how cats purr, but they still have no idea why they do this

Why and how the "Patom" crater in Siberia was created

Jan 31, 2019, 10:35

DA, apologies for the "you lot" remark...and sorry if you felt mocked or ridiculed by it. It was an irritable response not aimed at Atheists in general.

Jan 31, 2019, 10:38

Well we know at least one person that God doesn't consider to be a fool . . . Bozo BLOTUS the Caveman.


According to Sarah Sanders, God wants Trump to be president

At the risk of being struck down by lightning or something like that, I have to say that if God is a Trumpanzee then he's the one sounding like a fool. 

Jan 31, 2019, 10:51

I don't see a reason for you to apologise for saying "you lot" Db. There are two basic groups on the board with regards to religion. Those that are religious, and those that aren't. In other words, two "lots" that basically speak from the same song sheet. I don't get why people are so bloody sensitive about being placed in a grouping with similarly minded people. People are just too bloody sensitive in general. 


I assume DA took offense at what you had to say about his line of thought, more than who else shared that line of thought with him. At least I hope that's what he meant.  

The world has just become so bloody sensitive about everything. The older generations bitch about how soft the millennial's are, but it seems everyone is soft at the moment. I think maybe the world needs a new world war so that everyone can man the fark up, and realise how lekker life actually is right now....especially for us in the middle and upper classes. 

Jan 31, 2019, 11:09

DumbAss takes offence at everything. It's never taken much to get him stamping his little foot in self-righteous indignation and demanding apologies from everyone.


The fact that's he's also painfully stupid doesn't really help either.

Jan 31, 2019, 12:49

Somehow Einstein has now been grouped with the happy Clappies.... The same Einstein who referred to religious activity as a childish pastime. :D- and that also said that the idea one group of people could be Gods chosen people is ludicrous. :wassat:. Did God say Einstein is also a fool...


Jan 31, 2019, 13:26

I assume DA took offense at what you had to say about his line of thought, more than who else shared that line of thought with him. At least I hope that's what he meant. 

Never assume blue...… and no, I am not bloody sensitive, I merely pointed something out to Db

Where did I take any offense at all here.....?

You are waaaaay to quick to judge others blue...….

As for the apology, Db did not need to apologise at all, and no, I was not offended in anyway.

I merely pointed out the utter hypocrisy of his post, and quite frankly, I am surprised that you all missed it, except for Piss Mint, because he misses everything, except for his next fix or dop. 

Sheeeesh people, calm down

Jan 31, 2019, 13:40

Just to make it daylight clear for posters on here like Piss Mint who are just plain stupid....and lack that next level of intelligence...… that the rest on this forum enjoy on a daily basis

Don't state in a post that ridiculing and mocking other people's opinion will not make me or you correct, but then say in that very same post...…. that "you lot" cannot grasp this particular concept, or that "you lot" are going against what Einstein's theory was...… in other words mocking or ridiculing that specific group of people's opinions and implying that they are in fact all incorrect

Hope that clears it all up

Piss Mint, send me a PM and I will draw and send you a detailed picture

Jan 31, 2019, 13:48

Uh-oh . . . the hand is on the hip, the eyes are starting to pop, the foot is starting to stamp and the pointing finger is trembling with indignation . . . DumbAss has taken offence at something again . . . 

Jan 31, 2019, 13:53

"DumbAss takes offence at everything. It's never taken much to get him stamping his little foot in self-righteous indignation and demanding apologies from everyone."

This is from the very same poster who only responds to many of the forum posters posts on here with insults, calling them dumb, stupid, ignorant...… Beeno, Db, Moz, CupCake, Mike, Me…… too many to mention here. 

The same poster who called to ban another new poster on here just for fun, because he couldn't wait to use this new power he was given by the moderator.

Oh yes, the very same poster that was conclusively proven so many times to be a compulsive and blatant barefaced liar on here, even this week, professing to never have boasted about his chess prowess......

The same poster who blames someone else for "apparently" using drugs, yet he himself has previously confessed to being a drug user before

Yep, the same poster who jumped ship and told every poster on here to fuck off

A real gem of a guy

LMAO, yep, I think we all know who the self-righteous and stupid poster is

Jan 31, 2019, 14:11

DA, I think you missed my point. I said Db didn't need to apologise. You agreed with me. I said I didn't think you were offended (maybe the wrong word, but you did get defensive) by being grouped with other atheists. You agreed with me. Lastly, I never said you were sensitive. It was more a general statement about people these days. Db feeling the need to apologise is confirmation of this view. All I did was point out that it was not necessary. Basically, you and I, we are in agreement.   


I reckon that clears things up. 


Jan 31, 2019, 14:15

"I reckon that clears things up. "


Good luck with that, bluebok.

Jan 31, 2019, 14:19

Not offended by anything at all that Db posted

Not defensive at all about being grouped with any atheists....

I did however point out what I believed to be a very hypocritical post.... simple

I really don't see how this is now about me being offended or defensive about anything at all...…….. it was me pointing out the irony or hypocritical aspect of that post

LMAO...…  fuck me, things get twisted around here so quickly

Jan 31, 2019, 14:22

So Piss Mint

Do you still staunchly maintain that you have never ever openly bragged about your chess prowess on this forum..... and even boasted how you would kick another posters ass at chess?

You made this very bold claim earlier this week.... not me

Care to respond

Jan 31, 2019, 14:31

an 31, 2019, 12:49

1. Somehow Einstein has now been grouped with the happy Clappies.... 

2. The same Einstein who referred to religious activity as a childish pastime. :D- and that also said that the idea one group of people could be Gods chosen people is ludicrous. :wassat:.

3.  Did God say Einstein is also a fool...

1. Nope, I did not group him with the happy clappies. I was referring to his opinion that the order in the universe cannot be by pure chance. 

2. Yes the same one. I'm well aware of his views on organised religion.

3. God did not say anything of the kind, but Einstein called one of his own mistakes the biggest blunder of his life...well according to some anyway.




Jan 31, 2019, 14:53

"I merely pointed out the utter hypocrisy of his post, and quite frankly, I am surprised that you all missed it, "  (Well I didn't miss it, as is clear from the second part of my apology)

Don't state in a post that ridiculing and mocking other people's opinion will not make me or you correct, but then say in that very same post...…. that "you lot" cannot grasp this particular concept, or that "you lot" are going against what Einstein's theory was...… in other words mocking or ridiculing that specific group of people's opinions and implying that they are in fact all incorrect

Hope that clears it all up"

Well, I can understand that you came to that conclusion, but my intention was not to imply that anyone is stupid for not coming to the same conclusions as I do. This is not about being stupid, it's about a choice an individual make in what context he or she wan'ts to view the world.


PS: A case for mild hypocrisy can be made, utter hypocrisy is pushing it a bit. :D





Jan 31, 2019, 15:02

I think it was God calling people fools. Don't think it was any of us . . . well, apart from DumbAss of course . . . but it was God who started off calling people fools.

Jan 31, 2019, 15:03

Cool Db, no probs at all :)

Jan 31, 2019, 15:09

"I think it was God calling people fools. Don't think it was any of us . . . well, apart from DumbAss of course . . . but it was God who started off calling people fools."

And then his post below, in this very same thread that he created…..                                                

Jan 27, 2019, 20:04

Yes, Draad is talking down the East because he's a brainwashed and ignorant fool who doesn't know any better and does what his dominee tells him to do.

A twat is perhaps too nice a word, for a guy like you, in moments like this

Jan 31, 2019, 16:40

Sadly Koos is a brainwashed, sanctimonious liberal out of a mould which has produced billions of them. Push a button and you get a totally programmed response. I doubt the man has had an original thought in his life.....certainly none on this Board.

And other than DCup, who is more repetitious?

Jan 31, 2019, 16:59

.

Jan 31, 2019, 20:37

Image result for einstein religion jokes

Jan 31, 2019, 21:19

"“You believe in a God who plays dice, and I in complete law and order in a world which objectively exists, and which I in a wildly speculative way, am trying to capture. I firmly believe, but I hope that someone will discover a more realistic way, or rather a more tangible basis than it has been my lot to find.”


"“In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views.”


"He considered himself more of an agnostic (nothing is or can be known about the nature of God), and in a way he did believe in a God. He believed in ‘Spinoza’s God.’"


"To Einstein, science was more spiritual than religion, because science allows us to better understand the Universe. While our minds are not yet capable to fully understand its wonders, an attempt to do so brings us closer and closer to God. As we understand more about the Universe, we become closer to it."

Jan 31, 2019, 22:19

It is funny- because if someone said they do not believe in religion- then a Christian calls them an atheist. However, Einstein is classified as religious because he is one of the smartest people ever. Einstein makes it clear he is a religious non-believer- and that he does not belief in an afterlife. Any religions core business is to sell the afterlife like an insurance policy.  


If someone else does not believe in Church and repentance- they are instantly an atheist with no beliefs. If someone is not a Christian they are going to hell. If someone is not a Muslim they are going to hell- and should perhaps be killed here on earth. 


Einstein makes a lot of statements about God. The one conversation that most Christians cling to is the conversation he had with a 12-year-old Sunday School girl. When he compares science to a higher life form- after saying that he is not religious. It should be factored in he did not want to burst the bubble of a pre-teen child. 

However, you can find many/most opinions he expresses on religion ( to adults) is that he does not believe in religion. He might not be an atheist because he considers that a higher form or life or purpose can exist, he is certainly not a religious person. At best he is agnostic- just because he can't disprove or prove God, and afterlife etc. 

For lack of a better word- he can be considered spiritual (or believing in natural order) in that life has a purpose, and there is a difference between right and wrong- but that is not believing in God like a Christian God, or a Jewish God etc. He certainly is not a religious person.

Religious people confuse morals or natural order (or spirituality for lack of a better word) with religion. That is what Einstein is trying to explain here.

Lots of people who are agnostic- or even atheist- (do not believe in a personal God) can be spiritual because the possibility of an afterlife exists, or they believe in a moral code of right and wrong. Just because someone does not believe in religion(a man-made entity)- it does not mean they do not believe in anything. 

Any religious person wants to try claim morality and a spiritual high ground- even if they do not follow ethical principles in real life. Think of the parable of the good Samaritan where the religious people ignore the person needing help- but the non-religious person helps- proving that his morality in practice is better. However, religious people want to bang on about penance and going to church to get an afterlife, or supporting this like a football fan. 

It is common sense that it is better to get a good person than a bad person- this has nothing to do with religion. Also, anyone would prefer an afterlife to no afterlife- but there is no logical story- (and the Bible, Koran etc- are less logical than no story). 

This is the first ranking link in Google- 

Religious and philosophical views of Albert Einstein - Wikipedia


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_and_philosophical_views_of_Albert_Einstein
Jump to Personal God - Einstein expressed his scepticism regarding the existence of an anthropomorphic God, such as the God of Abrahamic religions, ...


Albert Einstein's religious views have been widely studied and often misunderstood.[1] Einstein stated that he believed in the pantheistic God of Baruch Spinoza.[2] He did not believe in a personal God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings, a view which he described as naïve.[3] He clarified however that, "I am not an atheist",[4] preferring to call himself an agnostic,[5] or a "religious nonbeliever."[3] 


Personal God[edit]

Einstein expressed his skepticism regarding the existence of an anthropomorphic God, such as the God of Abrahamic religions, often describing this view as "naïve"[3] and "childlike". (In other words, an endeavour for kids or simpletons).


Einstein also stated he did not believe in life after death, adding "one life is enough for me."[6] He was closely involved in his lifetime with several humanist groups.[7][8]

So he is a religious non-believer and he does not believe in the afterlife.

When he talks about God, he does not talk about him as a person. he says it is a code name for things beyond comprehension. It is more a possibility- than a belief. Just like there may be no God at all, or nature etc.  No one knows.

Religious people confuse morals,  (or natural order, spirituality, etc etc) with religion. That is what Einstein is trying to explain here.

Many Atheists or Agnostic people have a better code of morals than religious people- perhaps on average, and not just individually. This is what you lot do not understand. The parable of the good Samaritan proves this.   Religion wants to hold a monopoly of ethics, moral code, afterlife etc. You want to cash in on your insurance policy- even though you doubt its authenticity. 

Modern day social experiments have had the same findings....

A modern day example of hypocrites. https://owlcation.com/humanities/The-Unscrupulous-Lawyer. If I never helped this person in need, and a religious person did help them- I would be willing to admit that is a better person than I am- regardless of our differences in beliefs (Muslim, Christian, Athiest, etc etc). It is an objective criteria....




Feb 01, 2019, 06:07

Shark, you better start paying attention.  I never said Einstein was religious.  I said he wasn't an Atheist.  Big difference. 

Feb 01, 2019, 06:50

"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment. For even the very wise cannot see all ends."
-Gandalph

Feb 01, 2019, 07:31

It always interests me how much emphasis is placed on what Einsteins religious views were. He was one man. Yes he discovered the theories of general relativity and special relativity, but he was still only one man. By the way, both theories have flaws and we know this because there are occurrences in the universe that they can neither predict or explain. Still, his theories remain the best we have at the moment. But I digress. He was a great intellectual, but he was no specialist on religion, and if anything, his views on religion were relatively vague. So weather he was or was not religious, should actually have no bearing on the argument. There are and have been great intellectuals since Einstein, and although they have varying opinions on the matter, just like Einstein, none have been able to prove or disprove anything.


One thing I have noticed when reading up and watching current day intellectuals, especially those involved with particle physics and astrophysics like Brian Cox, Neil deGrasse Tyson, Stephen Hawking, and even Elon Musk, is that they all seem to be pretty vague about or even disinterested in religion. So like Einstein before them, they don't seem to place anywhere near as much emphasis on it, as people like us on this forum try to place on them. Are they just trying to be politically neutral, or do the genuine thinkers of the world simply view religion as less important than the rest of us? If they do view it as unimportant or merely incidental, maybe we should ask ourselves why we "more simple minded" people, place such massive emphasis on it?       

Feb 01, 2019, 10:30

Interesting questions blue

I don't consider anything to be cast in stone, regarding anything religion or even science related.

What we all know, is what we have all been taught.... individually and differently, from a very young age, and I really believe that, whether it be from a book, documentary, teacher or parents.

Racism, whilst a totally different issue here, is actually a classic example...….

If we had all grown up amongst a mixed race world, we would have never ever batted any eyelid at mixed race couples, but even today, people still do take a second look when a black man and a white woman walk down the street holding hands.

If we were raised amongst people or a nation, where mixed race was just the norm, we would never see it as being different or an alternative way of doing things as we do now, because it always "was" when you were growing up that way.

The same mostly goes for Christianity, Islam, and other religions...… because mostly all people are taught this from birth and know no different...… that muslin that hates the Christian could feel totally different about it, if he was adopted at birth and raised in a Christian home and had no issues with muslims.

Collectively as humans, or mankind, we don't know shit...…. I never have and never will state what or who is correct and who isn't when it comes to religion, because common sense tells me that there are far too many unknowns in this world to try and prove that you are correct on some web forum or at some dinner discussion.

For example, Piss Mint states some things as fact on here, but that just emphasizes to me just how highly he thinks his intellect is, or his opinion is to himself...…. and not others.

You must be extremely self important to think that your theory on religion, evolution and anything else related, is close to fact, and then call everyone else stupid in the process for not agreeing with you.

I fully respect anyone's belief, no matter how out there it is, as long as they don't insult my beliefs or thoughts on the same topic.

For instance, I fully believe that Piss Mint is a very stupid individual, and nobody can dispute that with me, because I have countless facts to back it up...…

For instance, I fully know without a doubt that Piss Mint is a compulsive liar, and nobody can dispute that with me because I have numerous statements and posts from him to prove it.

All the other stuff about religion and science is just up in the air......much like Piss Mint's nose to other posters


Feb 01, 2019, 13:36

"The fact that you ridicule my post just shows how very narrow minded and naïve you really are Piss Mint."

"At least when you post something, it is not to just try and insult someone or score some silly little noddy points in front of your fellow posters like Piss Mint does."

"I am open to any kind of discussion and point of view, but not with idiots like Piss Mint, because history has shown, it is his view or no view at all, because only his view is a matter of fact correct in his eyes."

"That is what makes you sooooo different to the other posters on here Piss Mint, because they at least can take in another point of view without being overly dismissive or outright rude because it does not line up with their own beliefs, like you do everyday on here."

"Glad to see that even at your age now Piss Mint, you know that you would have to spread your bets on which country would actually allow a twat like you, to live amongst their own."

"If you have the proof..... post it here now, or rather just shut up Piss Mint"

"I merely pointed out the utter hypocrisy of his post, and quite frankly, I am surprised that you all missed it, except for Piss Mint, because he misses everything, except for his next fix or dop. "

"Just to make it daylight clear for posters on here like Piss Mint who are just plain stupid....and lack that next level of intelligence...… that the rest on this forum enjoy on a daily basis"

"For example, Piss Mint states some things as fact on here, but that just emphasizes to me just how highly he thinks his intellect is, or his opinion is to himself...…. and not others."

"For instance, I fully believe that Piss Mint is a very stupid individual, and nobody can dispute that with me, because I have countless facts to back it up...…"

"For instance, I fully know without a doubt that Piss Mint is a compulsive liar, and nobody can dispute that with me because I have numerous statements and posts from him to prove it."

"All the other stuff about religion and science is just up in the air......much like Piss Mint's nose to other posters"

Goodness me, this Piss Mint person sounds dreadful!

LMAO!

Feb 01, 2019, 14:04

Image result for gandalf jokes religion

Feb 01, 2019, 14:16

.



"I grow weary of Piss Mint's malcontent"

Feb 01, 2019, 14:28

The question that bothers me and I guess everyone else as well is how is something created out of nothing. I know that neither science or religion has an answer and that bothers me as well. There is no answer in logical thinking either and perhaps thinking logically is our major stumbling block.

How do we think of nothing when we've always been surrounded by something? As human beings we cannot imagine nothing because we've always been surrounded by something. Empty space isn't nothing, it's something. Strangely enough we were created, something or someone created us and everything else but for that to happen there had to be something....how did that something come about?

Going through the religious comments if I can add my cents worth. Christians and the Muslims have a thing about "Its God's will." There's something awfully wrong with humans putting themselves in the Almighty's shoes by second guessing what the Almighty is thinking. One takes ownership of one's deeds, it's not God's will.

The Bible, contradictions and misinterpretations aside I see as a road map for Christians to follow. The challenge is to accept what is written and to have faith.

Science cannot disprove the Almighty neither can religion prove the existence of an Almighty.

No matter how much is said and written inevitably there's only one conclusion..."Ons weet niks."

Feb 01, 2019, 14:55

Ons weet niks. Very true D. There are a few things that can't be overlooked. Firstly, all the religions cannot be right, they all seem to at least agree on that. But if the God of any of the religions is even remotely fair and just, as they all claim to be, then the fact that the biggest decider of religion is geography basically means that either all the religions are wrong, or whatever one is correct, has a God that is a complete sadist knowing he has created people that will be born in the wrong place, and are almost guaranteed going to follow the wrong religion as a result, and ultimately land up in hell . Just because of geography!!! You see, I can't understand why anyone would want to follow such a God. 


Or just maybe, there is no God, and maybe religion is just a man made concept. If you can accept that, then the question would not be weather or not God created the universe, it would simply be. We don't understand how the universe got here, so we need to improve science and our understanding of it until we have figured it out. That would be the end of it. 

If you can't wrap your head around a world without a God, then my re-post below pretty clearly explains how God creating the universe is quite easily possible. 

"DA, just for the sake of argument, if one does believe in God being almighty and the creator of all things, then it is a simple explanation. God created everything...including the start of time. If time is a created concept, and our understanding of it was given to us by God, that would explain why he could exists outside of time and therefore outside our realm of understanding. Humans simply cannot comprehend a reality without time.  


To clarify what I am saying, think of a computer game. It was programmed by a programmer. The laws for a character within the game do not apply to the game's human programmer in real life. 

Assuming of course...you believe in an almighty God."  

Feb 01, 2019, 15:10

I like both Denny and blue's comments and ideas.....

It's food for thought, so thanks for that

Even though time is a human element, I still battle to understand how anything could always have been there...… life or existence has to have originated from somewhere or something...… I don't believe or buy the idea that something was always there to begin with...…….it just can't, in my mind......yet, for me, it is currently the only slightly plausible explanation..... but I'm not yet convinced

Feb 01, 2019, 15:38

".....life or existence has to have originated from somewhere or something...…"

Correct, but how?

Should we try and exploit another way of thinking about it other than through logic or science?

Feb 01, 2019, 17:19

Should we try and exploit another way of thinking about it other than through logic or science?

As I mentioned a few times, because we are taught to believe certain things in life from a young age, we are extremely limited to what we are taught, and what we don't yet know, which then stunts what we don't know we can do

How can scientists prove that we only use 3% of our brain?...…..

This is a guestimate at best, even though they can see what electrical activity happens in the brain through certain actions or processes

We can now, with just thought alone, make a bionic arm move and grab an object, or type a letter onto the screen of a computer.....

Just think about that for a second, and how telling someone that same thing 100 years ago would probably have got you killed for witchcraft or sorcery

How do we not know that perhaps we use 15% of our brain capacity right now, and if we could start using 25 %, we could perform unthinkable tasks, previously believed to be impossible.

The placebo effect is a classic human example of what a human being can achieve just by believing in something, and not being taught something

Feb 01, 2019, 20:51

Where I am clearly different to a lot of the "we'll never know" or "ons weet niks" crew is I'm clear on my beliefs. There was no beginning or creation. No beginning and no end so no need for a "creation".


Before DumbAss and others start unravelling and frothing at the mouth, those are my personal beliefs and I don't expect (or want) anyone else to agree with me . . . but I don't have uncertainties or vague "maybe's" in my life . . . I'm pretty clear on why I'm here, how I got here and what's going to happen to me when I die.

Feb 02, 2019, 03:03

Image result for christian hypocrite

Feb 02, 2019, 05:59

SB...that meme has nothing to do with anything, but damn man...you've nailed it!!! So bloody true. 

Feb 02, 2019, 06:13

Rooiters, I wish I could be as certain as you are about the universe, but for me, and I am not trying to convince you here, the evidence for an eternal universe is just nowhere near strong enough to allow me to be sure that it is the final answer. It is just one of many theories out there. 


As for purpose, where I am at the moment, I just believe in living the best life I can, not for some higher purpose, but just because I want to have experienced as much as I can and enjoyed as much as I can, before my time runs out and I die. I think on that you and I agree. Even though you have not actually stated much about your purpose.

Feb 02, 2019, 08:23

Blue, that's probably the most logical opinion on this thread.

Feb 02, 2019, 12:08

"As for purpose, where I am at the moment, I just believe in living the best life I can, not for some higher purpose, but just because I want to have experienced as much as I can and enjoyed as much as I can, before my time runs out and I die. I think on that you and I agree"


I don't think we agree entirely. I'm pretty clear on what my purpose is on this planet and I don't think it's quite as hedonistic as yours.

My purpose is the same as that of my father, and his father, and his father, and his father, and his father, and his father, and his father, and his father, and his father, and his father, and his father, and his father, and his father, and his father, and his father, and his father, and his father, and his father, and his father, and his father, and his father and so on back into the mists of time when our ancestors were single cells that reproduced successfully.

I believe our purpose is to continue the miraculous sequence of successful reproductions that led to our own birth. What adds meaning and joy to that purpose is raising good children who bring love and kindness to the world . . . and of course, grandchildren.

Feb 02, 2019, 12:27

Rooi, did you just say "love and kindness" :angel:?

Feb 02, 2019, 22:56

Draad, not sure if these are concepts you're unfamiliar with or if you read about as well as your hero Bozo BLOTUS, but yes, that is what I said.

Feb 02, 2019, 23:41

That means you are being a good Christian, other than repenting for your sins and believing only Christians would be capable of getting into heaven... :D An Apartheid heaven. :ninja:

Feb 03, 2019, 09:02

Shark, jy het die klok hoor lui, maar weet nie waar die bel hang nie.

Feb 03, 2019, 18:54

Draad, your hero Dawkins said that if Jesus really existed- he would have been an atheist.





Feb 03, 2019, 18:57


Feb 03, 2019, 21:45

Dickhead Dawkins should forget about hating on Jesus and rather stick to science.  Why the hell is what other people believe so much of a bother to him in the first place? Arsehole of note.

Feb 03, 2019, 22:02

Because he believes the world would be a better place without religion. He is entitled to his opinion and beliefs. I suspect that in the modern age - he is right.  A primitive self-delusion of the Abrahamian religions just creates division amongst people of different cultures. (The Jews believe they are God's people, the Islam followers believe they are God's people, and Christians believe their God is the one true God)- even though the religious texts are all based on the same one....


Dickhead Dawson has more intelligence in his toenail than you will ever have. If there is an afterlife, he will evolve to a better place much better than you. 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The religious fear Dawkins because he is smarter than any religious person in the world...

(And Einstein himself said he was not religious- the other BS about him being part of some pseudo-scientific religion is BS. These are not his own words....

 Einstein said he is a "religious non-believer"- and that he does not believe in an afterlife...

The pantheistic God stuff is not his own words. This is not a God anyway...Image result for richard dawkins devil





Feb 04, 2019, 03:47


Feb 04, 2019, 07:41

"Love and Kindness"

This is a joke right?

I reckon there isn't one single post on this entire forum's history.... where Piss Mint has displayed this...and if there is, it is less than 0.01%…..

But he professes to pass this on...…...LMAO !!

All he ever displays is bitterness and hatred...… and his board buddy CupCake displays bitterness, hatred and racism...…

Two peas in a pod

Feb 04, 2019, 07:42

"The religious fear Dawkins because he is smarter than any religious person in the world..."

LOL, I don't fear him, I despise him because he is misusing science for his aggressive atheists agenda...and fellow aggressive atheists like yourself lap it up because he is intelligent. 

Feb 04, 2019, 09:35

"Aggressive atheists"?

Who are these aggressive atheists you speak of, Draad?

I'm not aware of atheist armies being sent to destroy adherents of a different religion . . . or atheist law that tolerates stoning or beheading . . . or different branches of atheists killing each other because they interpret some book differently . . . or any acts of atheist violence or aggression that can compare with some of the atrocities committed in the name of Christianity or Islam.

Feb 04, 2019, 11:46

We dont lap it up because he is intelligent, we agree with him as he talks common sense and logic, something that is totally missing from the religious argument.

He is passionate in trying to educate the uneducated and superstitious that is all, he is no different in his passion  than any of your preachers, The only difference for you is he forces you to face the fact there is so many holes and how wacky your beliefs are when someone points out that your religion is not actually what you believe it to be.

Can you provide any examples to where he is misusing science ( I presume you mean he makes up things and claiming they are actually scientific fact) to attack religion?

Feb 04, 2019, 13:50

Related image

Feb 04, 2019, 13:55

Image result for richard dawkins jokes

Feb 04, 2019, 13:56

Related image

Feb 04, 2019, 13:58

.


Feb 04, 2019, 17:39

Richard Dawkins/Quotes
We are all atheists about most of the gods that societies have ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further
---


It is amazing that most religious people can see the absurdity of other religions- but not their own. 
The Abrahamic religions have the same old testament- except for some editing done over the years by each religion to support their changing ideology over the years. E.g. Islam, Christianity, Jewish.
Even some Christians like Beeno says that the Catholic Church is evil. A lot of Baal.



Feb 04, 2019, 18:53

"The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist."

Feb 04, 2019, 18:58

.

Feb 04, 2019, 19:04

I don't buy into the fire and brimstone, but some do.

Feb 04, 2019, 19:59

In Britain Islam is growing and atheism numbers haven't changed all that much. It seems the enlighten British move to more vague ideas, more militant religion or embrace all kind of hippy stuff these days instead of atheism.

Feb 04, 2019, 20:15

How many people did the Devil kill during the Bible compared to God? God makes the devil look like mister nice guy.


The devil was an angel and he can play the guitar. He will always have a place for you in the afterlife, even if God does not. So that devil is not as bad as some will have you believe. Hansie Cronje was allowed into hell where he currently captains an undefeated cricket team.

Feb 05, 2019, 03:43

DA

Don't be distracted by Koosie who once again trying to sabotage a healthy debate.

I find the questions you pose quite interesting and I'm sure there many more mysterious questions which we aren't aware of that will be left unanswered. Perhaps that just the way it's suppose to work. I've had a couple of interesting experiences which has convinced me that there is a superior being but I'm not convinced that he is one and the same as the Christian God. 

I say again, science cannot disprove the existance of an Almighty neither can religion prove the existence of an Almighty. No-one has the answers, nothing is set in stone, we can only question what will always remain a mystery. It's only the arrogant who believe they have the answers.

Some interesting observations reading through some of the posts.....

a) There are similarities between the Koran and the Old Testament, yes there are, that said Christianity is 600 years older then Islam.

b) The Greeks gave us democracy and capitalism.....the Moors gave us..

many mathematical concepts (and words) from (or via) the Moors, including:

  • algebra
  • algorithm
  • zero (from "zephirum")
  • The Moors were far superior in many facets of life than Christianity, a fact that seems to be ignored. 



Feb 05, 2019, 07:15

The bible was a terrible moral compass.....compared to what? Going across to the next tribe, stealing their cattle, killing their elders and children, putting the young men and ugly women in the fields and raping the pretty ones?

The God of the Old Testament was an authoritarian figure because he needed to be. The teachings of Christ are a major foundation of modern morality.

The notion that humans were going to evolve out of mayhem without the threat of punishment is just stupid modern thinking....IQs have dropped since 1975, along with common sense.

Feb 05, 2019, 09:45

"IQs have dropped since 1975 . . ."


Let me take a wild guess here . . . 1975 was the year Moffie got a gold star on his forehead for integrating x squared correctly which thrilled him so much that to this day the ability to integrate something is Moffie's measure of a person's intelligence . . . and IQs all over the planet have been falling ever since that glorious day of the gold star.

Feb 05, 2019, 10:26

How did the ancient Greeks get along without the old testament? 


The old testament was first accepted around 300 years after the death of Jesus by the newly formed Roman Christian empire- and thereafter by Muslims. Prior to this Romans were Pagans, and Hebrews/Jews were made up of various religions like Judaism. Canaan was also a popular religion of people in that area in the time, sometimes linked to people before Islam- although it is hard to tell at that time- as their does seem to be overlap of religions

So Romans only followed the teachings of the old testament sometime after the death of Jesus. The old testament is largely a story about the Jews. (e.g. Moses leading them to the promised land- and the hereditary line of descendants from David to Jesus). 

The ancient Greeks invented modern philosophy and made more contribution to modern day thought without (and before) teachings of the old testament. When Christianity was forced upon them by the Roman Catholic church, they went backwards along with the rest of the world. Roman rose to power on the basis of the ancient Greeks- before going backwards into the dark ages.

Ancient Greeks had religions but they also had atheists- and were far more open-minded. Certainly not a dogmatic monolithic religion like the Abrahamic religions.

It is a historical fact that the world went backwards in the Christian era. (Also referred to as the dark ages). The devil and witchcraft only became very popular when Protestants started to challenge the authority of the Catholic church- and this was just propaganda for heresy 

TimeLine

1. Before Christianity- Progression (Ancient Greeks & Ancient Romans)

2. Christianity becomes popular-  the world goes backwards. (Dark Ages)

3. Renaissance- the world starts to progress again by discovering records of Ancient Greeks and Romans. (Cultural Enlightenment).   Christianity splits into Protestant and Catholics. Protestants are less religious and less right wing. They question absolute truth and favour relative truth. Some become agnostic or atheist such as modern day scientists. 


---
So again, the Ancient Greeks contributed more to the modern world in terms of science, philosophy, economics, politics- without Christianity. (This was BC- before Christ). So how exactly is Christianity essential to modern day morals and thought....




Feb 05, 2019, 10:47

Good post Sharkbok.

Feb 05, 2019, 13:18

"IQs have dropped since 1975 . . ."


Let me take a wild guess here . . . 1975 was the year Moffie got a gold star on his forehead for integrating x squared correctly which thrilled him so much that to this day the ability to integrate something is Moffie's measure of a person's intelligence . . . and IQs all over the planet have been falling ever since that glorious day of the gold star.

The IQ peak is for people born in the mid 70's. (from what I have read somewhere)

Feb 05, 2019, 13:53

"(from what I have read somewhere)"

Oh I see . . . one of those "I read it on the Internet so it must be true" things?

Seriously, why would humankind and other species keep evolving and improving in every aspect and then suddenly in the mid 1970s the pattern that has been going for millions of years suddenly changes . . . and only for IQ?

I do believe that generations to come might be lazier thinkers than us because they have resources like Google and Wikipedia to answer pretty much any question they have and they don't need to retain that knowledge the way we had to either (because if they ever need it again they can just Google it again) and they'll think differently to us as they adapt and evolve . . . but to think they'll be dumber than us is . . . well . . . dumb!

In 500 years time humans will be bigger, stronger and smarter than we are . . . just as we are bigger, stronger and smarter than our ancestors from 500 years ago.

Feb 05, 2019, 15:26

This discussion of IQs apparently falling is a good example of a stupid person reading or hearing about something, not understanding it, not thinking it through and then jumping to stupid conclusions.


I've been reading up on this and the IQ of humans is not in decline. The rate by which IQ continually increases has tapered off slightly in certain countries but there's a very logical reason for this.

The universally accepted Flynn effect is the increase in IQ every generation resulting in the need to calibrate IQ tests on a regular basis. Basically, as people get smarter, IQ tests have to be adjusted to cater for the gradual increase in intelligence so that an IQ of 100 remains the norm or the average. The bar is raised approximately 3 IQ points per decade meaning a person scoring 100 in an IQ tests in 1970 would probably only score 85 if he took an IQ test today. The reverse is also true and has been proven. People with an IQ of 100 today have taken older IQ tests and generally score 3 points higher per decade depending on how old the IQ test is.

This increase in IQ has been consistent since measuring intelligence began over a hundred years ago.

Now, a few years back research was done that showed that the Flynn effect had dropped from approx 3 points per decade to 2.1 points but only in certain German-speaking and Scandinavian countries, and in Denmark specifically, the increase was even lower and actually reversed in the specific area of spatial perception.

This is where stupid people like Moffie and Draad start getting excited but as I said earlier, there are very logical explanations which stupid people are clearly incapable of working out for themselves or reading up about. Ask yourself what the German-speaking and Scandinavian countries all have in common . . . good quality of life, highly intelligent people and very good education systems. In Denmark, there was a change in the schooling system and the apparent reversal of the Flynn effect is in line with the simultaneous decline in the proportion of students entering 3-year advanced-level school programs for 16-18 year olds. 

As for the other German-speaking and Scandinavian countries, they have always had IQs well above the global average and the relatively recent influx of non-German-speaking and non-Scandinavian migrants/refugees/immigrants to those countries has resulted in a drop in the average national IQ. I don't want to get into a debate about white Aryan people having higher IQs than people from Africa and the Middle East but the change in population in these countries reflects the same change in average national IQ. 

So people aren't getting dumber. As a species we continue to evolve both physically and mentally. As lesser educated people from poorer and less developed countries migrate in ever growing numbers to more educated and developed countries, the speed at which the average IQ of those countries increases slows slightly and will probably return to normal as those people are educated.

In summary, only a stupid person would think that we are getting dumber as a species.

Feb 05, 2019, 15:36

I have two reasons for that Rooiters. Firstly, I was born in the 1970's, that would automatically make it a prime decade. I mean Duh!!! 


More seriously, you assume that evolution will automatically pass on the strongest and best genes, but with humanity that is no longer the case. Unlike other animals, we are, for the most part anyway, no longer limited by the main driving factors behind evolution. Namely food, survival, and breeding. Food is abundant for most humans, without that limitation, humans are able to reproduce and survive without nature putting any cap on it (for now anyway). The most technologically advanced humans, those that have built the best tools to assist with life and survival, are not even reproducing enough to maintain their numbers. The least technologically advanced, and probably those with the lowest average IQ, are breeding unabated. Simply put, the genes of the stupid are being passed on to the next generation at a much higher rate than those of the advanced. In even simpler terms, the stupid are out fucking the clever. In even more simpler terms, MTV, Keeping up with the Kardashians, Rap music, ANC staying in power, Donald Trump (I added that just for you), White monopoly capital etc etc etc. Nature may eventually step in and correct the trend, but right now, us getting dumber, from a purely evolutionary point of view, is certainly plausible.    

Feb 05, 2019, 15:45

"(from what I have read somewhere)"

"Oh I see . . . one of those "I read it on the Internet so it must be true" things?"

You state this above, to try and ridicule Db, but then post links like below, to your very own internet articles on the same topic...…LMAO?

Look at me, listen to me, my articles are superior and only mention valid and confirmed facts, not their articles.... please believe mine and nobody else's...…....LOL

And you call Moz and Db stupid.....Eish…...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flynn_effect

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0191886905001145?via%3Dihub



Feb 05, 2019, 16:01

The rapidly growing third world population could skew the numbers. The average IQ is around 100%, but in Africa it is something like 70%. However, there is no doubt people are getting smarter- apart from the social/economic hardship places.


Feb 05, 2019, 16:03

Can't agree bluebok. The genes that we pass on may not be the genes of survival as they were back when we were cavemen but you can't deny that in any society today - whether it's New York, Cairo or Khayalitsha - it's the wealthy guys getting laid more often than the burger-flippers like DumbAss and those people are usually wealthy because they're intelligent.

If anything we're more likely to pass on smart genes than we were in the past because intelligence is much more important in today's world than physical prowess so it's the opposite of what it used to be.

Feb 05, 2019, 16:16

Bottom line is you don't need intelligence to survive anymore Rooiters. It used to be an advantage, but if anything, it is a breeding disadvantage today. The Intelligent, in general, would consider the consequences of breeding, the stupid, in general, would not not.  

Feb 05, 2019, 17:26

(CNN)IQ scores have been steadily falling for the past few decades, and environmental factors are to blame, a new study says.

The research suggests that genes aren't what's driving the decline in IQ scores, according to the study, published Monday. Norwegian researchers analyzed the IQ scores of Norwegian men born between 1962 and 1991 and found that scores increased by almost 3 percentage points each decade for those born between 1962 to 1975 -- but then saw a steady decline among those born after 1975. Content by PurePoint® Financial Lessons In Gold Hannah Kearney has been in love with mountains ever since she first strapped on a pair of skis as a young girl, but her gold medal journey almost never happened. Similar studies in Denmark, Britain, France, the Netherlands, Finland and Estonia have demonstrated a similar downward trend in IQ scores, said Ole Rogeberg, a senior research fellow at the Ragnar Frisch Center for Economic Research in Norway and co-author of the new study. Fluoride exposure in utero linked to lower IQ in kids, study says Fluoride exposure in utero linked to lower IQ in kids, study says "The causes in IQ increases over time and now the decline is due to environmental factors," said Rogeburg, who believes the change is not due to genetics. "It's not that dumb people are having more kids than smart people, to put it crudely. It's something to do with the environment, because we're seeing the same differences within families," he said. These environmental factors could include changes in the education system and media environment, nutrition, reading less and being online more, Rogeberg said. The earlier rise in IQ scores follows the "Flynn effect," a term for the long-term increase in intelligence levels that occurred during the 20th century, arguably the result of better access to education, according to Stuart Ritchie, a postdoctoral fellow in cognitive ageing at the University of Edinburgh whose research explores IQ scores and intelligence and who was not involved in the new study. An intelligence or IQ test. An intelligence or IQ test. Researchers have long preferred to use genes to explain variations in intelligence over environmental factors. However, the new study turns this thinking on its head. Intelligence is heritable, and for a long time, researchers assumed that people with high IQ scores would have kids who also scored above average. Moreover, it was thought that people with lower scores would have more kids than people with high IQ scores, which would contribute to a decline in IQ scores over time and a "dumbing down" of the general population, according to Rogeberg. Anyone who has seen the film "Idiocracy" might already be familiar with these ideas. In the scientific community, the idea of unintelligent parents having more kids and dumbing-down the population is known as the dysgenic fertility theory, according to Ritchie. Can you improve your emotional intelligence? Can you improve your emotional intelligence? The study looked at the IQ scores of brothers who were born in different years. Researchers found that, instead of being similar as suggested by a genetic explanation, IQ scores often differed significantly between the siblings. "The main exciting finding isn't that there was a decline in IQ," Ritchie said. "The interesting thing about this paper is that they were able to show a difference in IQ scores within the same families." The study not only showed IQ variance between children the same parents, but because the authors had the IQ scores of various parents, it demonstrated that parents with higher IQs tended to have more kids, ruling out the dysgenic fertility theory as a driver of falling IQ scores and highlighting the role of environmental factors instead. What specific environmental factors cause changes in intelligence remains relatively unexplored.

Feb 05, 2019, 17:26

(CNN)IQ scores have been steadily falling for the past few decades, and environmental factors are to blame, a new study says.

The research suggests that genes aren't what's driving the decline in IQ scores, according to the study, published Monday. Norwegian researchers analyzed the IQ scores of Norwegian men born between 1962 and 1991 and found that scores increased by almost 3 percentage points each decade for those born between 1962 to 1975 -- but then saw a steady decline among those born after 1975. Content by PurePoint® Financial Lessons In Gold Hannah Kearney has been in love with mountains ever since she first strapped on a pair of skis as a young girl, but her gold medal journey almost never happened. Similar studies in Denmark, Britain, France, the Netherlands, Finland and Estonia have demonstrated a similar downward trend in IQ scores, said Ole Rogeberg, a senior research fellow at the Ragnar Frisch Center for Economic Research in Norway and co-author of the new study. Fluoride exposure in utero linked to lower IQ in kids, study says Fluoride exposure in utero linked to lower IQ in kids, study says "The causes in IQ increases over time and now the decline is due to environmental factors," said Rogeburg, who believes the change is not due to genetics. "It's not that dumb people are having more kids than smart people, to put it crudely. It's something to do with the environment, because we're seeing the same differences within families," he said. These environmental factors could include changes in the education system and media environment, nutrition, reading less and being online more, Rogeberg said. The earlier rise in IQ scores follows the "Flynn effect," a term for the long-term increase in intelligence levels that occurred during the 20th century, arguably the result of better access to education, according to Stuart Ritchie, a postdoctoral fellow in cognitive ageing at the University of Edinburgh whose research explores IQ scores and intelligence and who was not involved in the new study. An intelligence or IQ test. An intelligence or IQ test. Researchers have long preferred to use genes to explain variations in intelligence over environmental factors. However, the new study turns this thinking on its head. Intelligence is heritable, and for a long time, researchers assumed that people with high IQ scores would have kids who also scored above average. Moreover, it was thought that people with lower scores would have more kids than people with high IQ scores, which would contribute to a decline in IQ scores over time and a "dumbing down" of the general population, according to Rogeberg. Anyone who has seen the film "Idiocracy" might already be familiar with these ideas. In the scientific community, the idea of unintelligent parents having more kids and dumbing-down the population is known as the dysgenic fertility theory, according to Ritchie. Can you improve your emotional intelligence? Can you improve your emotional intelligence? The study looked at the IQ scores of brothers who were born in different years. Researchers found that, instead of being similar as suggested by a genetic explanation, IQ scores often differed significantly between the siblings. "The main exciting finding isn't that there was a decline in IQ," Ritchie said. "The interesting thing about this paper is that they were able to show a difference in IQ scores within the same families." The study not only showed IQ variance between children the same parents, but because the authors had the IQ scores of various parents, it demonstrated that parents with higher IQs tended to have more kids, ruling out the dysgenic fertility theory as a driver of falling IQ scores and highlighting the role of environmental factors instead. What specific environmental factors cause changes in intelligence remains relatively unexplored.

Feb 05, 2019, 17:32

Schplott Koos.....once again you are out of date. As for your point Shark.....the reason the Ancient Greeks did without the God of the Old Testament.....is because they had:

Achelous

The patron god of the “silver-swirling” Achelous River.

Aeolus

Greek god of the winds and air

Aether

Primordial god of the upper air, light, the atmosphere, space and heaven.

Alastor

God of family feuds and avenger of evil deeds.

APOLLO

Olympian god of music, poetry, art, oracles, archery, plague, medicine, sun, light and knowledge.

ARES

God of war. Represented the physical, violent and untamed aspect of war.

Aristaeus

Minor patron god of animal husbandry, bee-keeping, and fruit trees. Son of Apollo.

Asclepius

God of medicine, health, healing, rejuvenation and physicians.

ATLAS

The Primordial Titan of Astronomy. Condemned by Zeus to carry the world on his back after the Titans lost the war.

Attis

A minor god of vegetation, fruits of the earth and rebirth.

Boreas

A wind god (Anemoi) and Greek god of the cold north wind and the bringer of winter. Referred to as “The North Wind”.

Caerus

Minor god of opportunity, luck and favorable moments.

CASTOR

One of the twins, Castor and Pollux, known as Dioskouri. Zeus transformed them into the constellation Gemini

Cerus

The large and powerful wild bull tamed by Persephone and turned into the Taurus constellation.

CHAOS

The nothingness that all else sprung from. A god who filled the gap between Heaven and Earth and created the first beings Gaia, Tartarus, Uranus, Nyx and Erebos.

Charon

The Ferryman of Hades. Took the newly dead people across the rivers Styx and Acheron to the Greek underworld if they paid him three obolus (a Greek silver coin).

CRONOS

The god of time. Not to be confused with Cronus, the Titan father of Zeus.

Crios

The Titan god of the heavenly constellations and the measure of the year..

CRONUS

God of agriculture, leader and the youngest of the first generation of Titans and father of the Titans. Not to be confused with Cronos, god of time.

Dinlas

Guardian god of the ancient city Lamark, where wounded heroes could find comfort and heal after battle. He was the son of Aphrodite.

DEIMOS

Deimos is the personification of dread and terror.

DIONYSUS

An Olympian god of the grape harvest, winemaking and wine, of ritual madness, religious ecstasy and theatre.

Erebus

Primordial god of darkness.

EROS

God of sexual desire, attraction, love and procreation.

Eurus

One of the wind god known as Anemoi and god of the unlucky east wind. Referred to as “The East Wind”.

Glaucus

A fisherman who became immortal upon eating a magical herb, an Argonaut who may have built and piloted the Argo, and became a god of the sea.

HADES

God of the Dead and Riches and King of the Underworld.

HELIOS

God of the Sun and also known as Sol.

HEPHAESTUS

God of fire, metalworking, stone masonry, forges and the art of sculpture. Created weapons for the gods and married to Aphrodite.

HERACLES

The greatest of the Greek heroes, he became god of heroes, sports, athletes, health, agriculture, fertility, trade, oracles and divine protector of mankind. Known as the strongest man on Earth.

HERMES

God of trade, thieves, travelers, sports, athletes, and border crossings, guide to the Underworld and messenger of the gods.

Hesperus

The Evening Star – the planet VENUS in the evening.

Hymenaios

God of marriage ceremonies, inspiring feasts and song.

HYPNOS

The Greek god of sleep.

Kratos

God of strength and power.

MOMUS

God of satire, mockery, censure, writers and poets and a spirit of evil-spirited blame and unfair criticism.

MORPHEUS

God of dreams and sleep – has the ability to take any human form and appear in dreams.

Nereus

The Titan god of the sea before Poseidon and father of the Nereids (nymphs of the sea).

Notus

Another Anemoi (wind god) and Greek god of the south wind. Known as “The South Wind”.

OCEANUS

Titan god of the ocean. Believed to be the personification of the World Ocean, an enormous river encircling the world.

ONEIROI

Black-winged daimons that personified dreams.

PAEAN

The physician of the Olympian gods.

Pallas

The Titan god of warcraft and of the springtime campaign season.

PAN

God of nature, the wild, shepherds, flocks, goats, mountain wilds, and is often associated with sexuality. Also a satyr (half man, half-goat).

Phosphorus

The Morning Star – THE PLANET VENUS as it appears in the morning.

PLUTUS

The Greek god of wealth.

Pollux

Twin brother of Castor, together known as the Dioskouri, that were transformed into the constellation Gemini.

Pontus

ancient, pre-Olympian sea-god of the deep sea, one of the Greek primordial deities and son of Gaia.

POSEIDON

Olympian Greek god of the sea, earthquakes, storms, and horses.

Priapus

Minor rustic fertility god, protector of flocks, fruit plants, bees and gardens and known for having an enormous penis.

Pricus

The immortal father of sea-goats, made into the Capricorn constellation.

Pricus

The immortal father of sea-goats, made into the Capricorn constellation.

PROMETHEUS

Titan god of forethought and crafty counsel who was given the task of moulding mankind out of clay.

PRIMORDIAL

A group of gods that came before all else.

Tartarus

The god of the deep abyss, a great pit in the depths of the underworld, and father of Typhon.

THANATOS

A minor god and the god of death.

TRITON

Messenger of the sea and the son of Poseidon and Amphitrite.

TYPHON

The deadliest MONSTER in Greek mythology and “Father of All Monsters”. Last son of Gaia, fathered by Tartarus and god of monsters, storms, and volcanoes. He challenged Zeus for control of Mount Olympus.

URANUS

Primordial god of the sky and heavens, and father of the Titans.

ZELUS

The god of dedication, emulation, eager rivalry, envy, jealousy, and zeal.

Zephyrus

A wind god (Anemoi). God of the west wind and known as “The West Wind”.

ZEUS

God of the sky, lightning, thunder, law, order, justice, King of the Gods and the “Father of Gods and men”.

...........

And every one of these Gods was in their lives moment by moment......if they took a boat out of the harbour their first concern was whether they were okay with Poseidon.

They were controlled by fear of the Gods.

Didn't you know that? Your take on the Ancient Greeks as a rational, atheistic, ancient version of Scandinavia is laughably wrong.

Feb 05, 2019, 17:37

Good points. Add modern day middle class life style. Mom and dad needs to work, so kids go to daycare. They get parked in front of TV's too often and don't get proper stimulation. 

The society has gone to sh!t and kids can't play outside anymore.
Add the fact that in a democracy, less educated poor people is outbreeding better educated people at a rate of knots...and gets to call the shots.

PS, that movie you mentioned obviously skewed your opinion:D

PPS, Rudeneck, stop calling people stupid, it says something about you.

Feb 05, 2019, 18:25

Those Gods sound nice- and ancient Greeks invented atheism. 


Sounds like free will - the ideal area for democracy and capitalism to be born. (unlike say in Saudia Arabia with Islam- where something like democracy would never be invented). 

Cupid was also a God, although I think he was a Roman God. Eros was the Greek equivalent.

The ancient Greeks also realised the world revolved around the sun... Something the Christian Church burnt people at the stake for claiming this. 

I don't have an issue with all religion- but I do believe the Abrahamian religions took man backwards.

Feb 05, 2019, 18:33

You look like a Loki worshipper :D.

Feb 05, 2019, 18:44

". . . but then saw a steady decline among those born after 1975. Content by PurePoint® Financial Lessons In Gold Hannah Kearney has been in love with mountains ever since she first strapped on a pair of skis as a young girl, but her gold medal journey almost never happened. Similar studies . . ."


"Fluoride exposure in utero linked to lower IQ in kids, study says Fluoride exposure in utero linked to lower IQ in kids, study says "The causes in IQ increases"

"Can you improve your emotional intelligence? Can you improve your emotional intelligence? "

LMAO! The feeble-minded old dolt who is opining on intelligence hasn't even got the basic intelligence to do a simple copy and paste . . . and he went and posted his unintelligible garbage twice!

Waaaaaaahahahahahahahahahahaha!


Feb 05, 2019, 20:41

Rooi, if you think evolution is a straight inclined line, you are dead wrong. Just go asked the dinosaurs, they'll set you straight...oh wait...

Feb 05, 2019, 20:53

I hope you read it twice Koos, because you clearly knew nothing about it.

Feb 05, 2019, 21:42

Draad, what on earth makes you think that I think evolution is perfectly linear?


I know you're a bit dim but it's not a rhetorical question, I'd really like to know how you arrived at that bizarre conclusion.

Are you suggesting that I don't know about thngs like the Cambrian explosion or various mass extinction events?

Huh?

Feb 05, 2019, 21:49

"Seriously, why would humankind and other species keep evolving and improving in every aspect and then suddenly in the mid 1970s the pattern that has been going for millions of years suddenly changes . . . and only for IQ?"

Feb 05, 2019, 21:57

I stand by that comment but I don't know how that could be interpreted as saying all evolution is linear.

Whatever species evolves continues to improve and that has been the case for millions of years. That's the process of natural selection, but any species can be wiped out at any point in time and be replaced or supplanted by another. That's not linear at all.

If you have examples of mankind or any other species devolving then please share because I'd find that very interesting indeed.

Feb 05, 2019, 22:23

If you have examples of mankind or any other species devolving then please share because I'd find that very interesting indeed.


Well the dinosaurs got wiped out because the could not adapt fast enough...not exactly devolving, but we never had a specie on Earth before that goes against what is good for its own existence. We are hampering our own evolution. Nature might just correct us as it did the dinosaurs....and this conversation stemmed from the assumption that humans are experiencing a drop in IQ. Intelligence is by no means a prerequisite for survival. ...ask any crock. (not Denny's shoes)

Feb 06, 2019, 01:47


Feb 06, 2019, 08:35

"Well the dinosaurs got wiped out because the could not adapt fast enough"


Okay, that statement tells me everything I need to know about your knowledge of evolution. Thanks. I think you and I are done here.

Feb 06, 2019, 13:19

Draad, evolution happens over a very long period of time. The dinosaurs, except the small avian predecessors, went extinct due to an asteroid hitting the earth making survival of large bodied animals basically impossible. With the dwindling resources due to the asteroid's impact, only the smaller creatures and insects were able to survive. There was simply not enough time for any large creatures to evolve and by extension "adapt" to a world that changed, in terms of evolutionary time, in an instant. In other words, the speed the world changed after the asteroid strike, meant evolution could not be a factor for the survival of large creatures like dinosaurs.


    

Feb 06, 2019, 14:26

The extinction of the dinosaurs due to a asteroid hitting the earth is a theory, and nothing more

They "think" this happened about 65 million years ago

There never will be conclusive proof that this wiped out all species of life on earth, it is just a plausible scientific theory


Feb 06, 2019, 15:10

DA, it is generally agreed that it is the most likely reason for the extinction of the dinosaurs. Even the impact site for the asteroid has been found, somewhere in the gulf of Mexico if memory serves me correctly. The word theory can be very misleading. In science the word theory basically means as close to a fact as science can determine. Einsteins general relativity "theories" are good examples of this. Just because something is referred to as theory, certainly does not mean it is just a guess, or one of a bunch of ideas swirling around. So yes, there is margin for error in the theory of the asteroid putting an end to the dinosaurs, but that it is still very highly likely to be correct.  


Anyway, something did suddenly put an end to almost all large creatures almost instantly, and even if it wasn't an asteroid, which it almost certainly was, there still obviously wasn't enough time for large creatures to evolve in order to survive. Adapting and evolving are two massively different things. 

Feb 06, 2019, 15:13

"There never will be conclusive proof that this wiped out all species of life on earth"

No, because no-one is claiming that. Only a very stupid person would even suggest that all species on earth were wiped out and life had to start all over again. 

The asteroid or comet that caused the K-T mass-extinction event destroyed between 70 and 80% of all plant and animal species on earth. Anything within about 1000 km of the impact site would have been killed immediately by the fireball and anything within a further 10 000 km would have been killed within minutes by the shockwaves or suffered 3rd degree burns. The life forms that did survive would have had to contend with tsunamis, earthquakes and volcanoes followed by about 2 years of no sunlight and no photosynthesis due to ash, debris and dust as well as rapid changes in global temperatures . . . so anyone saying that the dinosaurs died because "they could not adapt fast enough" is a blithering idiot who is best ignored . . . almost as stupid as the fool who thinks all life was wiped out and had to start all over again.

Feb 06, 2019, 16:11

"so anyone saying that the dinosaurs died because "they could not adapt fast enough" is a blithering idiot who is best ignored . . . almost as stupid as the fool who thinks all life was wiped out and had to start all over again."

I see, so you can provide conclusive factual proof that this happened 75 million years ago, and that only 70 - 80 percent of life on earth was destroyed..... please, post this proof, or is it just another website or science article that is providing these stats to you...… again, this is something you have been taught from a very young age, from a teacher, book, or tv show.....so you know no different at all

Don't tell me the crater is there for all to see, it's means fuck all...… it's one of many craters.

"Anyway, something did suddenly put an end to almost all large creatures almost instantly, and even if it wasn't an asteroid, which it almost certainly was, there still obviously wasn't enough time for large creatures to evolve in order to survive. Adapting and evolving are two massively different things."

I don't agree blue, some are saying that it could have taken over 11 000 years or more for these species to become extinct due to many other reasons, so why do you say it happened almost instantly?

Nobody on this planet can conclusively prove what happened 500 000 years ago, never mind 65 million years ago...… they are interesting theories, but that it where it ends

Feb 06, 2019, 16:16

"The asteroid or comet that caused the K-T mass-extinction event destroyed between 70 and 80% of all plant and animal species on earth. Anything within about 1000 km of the impact site would have been killed immediately by the fireball and anything within a further 10 000 km would have been killed within minutes by the shockwaves or suffered 3rd degree burns"

LMAO, you talk here like you had a front row seat...…

First it was a asteroid 5km wide, then 6km, then it had to be 7km wide, then 8km, then 9km, then between 10km and 12km with 10 billions times the power of the Hiroshima bomb...….

Feb 06, 2019, 16:49

Piss Mint, the difference between you and I on this particular topic is that you cannot for any reason whatsoever even consider someone else's opinion or idea on this topic.... you are right and that is it, period.

That just displays how self opinionated you are, and how self obsessed you are with yourself.

I will gladly take on all ideas and opinions on this, but I might not agree with them all, but I don't go around calling everyone stupid because their ideas don't fall in line with mine

Pathetic


Feb 06, 2019, 17:40

Blue, the meteor hitting Earth is the most plausible scenario ATM. I am well aware of that theory and don't dispute it. Now, tell me, why did most of the life we know of today survive that? Is that not an extreme form of natural selection? There was some luck involved, but that event is probably the reason we as humans are here today. 

I know it's wasn't the run of the mill small changes over eons, but natural selection all the same.  They (dinosaurs)  were top of the food chain and extinct in a wink of an eye.

If we humans encounter a drastic change suddenly, even our "clever" species won't be able to ajust in time...hence the fear mongering over climate change.

ATM we as humans make decisions about our survival based on things that are not necessarily in our best interest. 

Feb 06, 2019, 21:58

"Now, tell me, why did most of the life we know of today survive that? "


Goodness me, how dumb is this plank and why is he debating a subject when it's painfully obvious he's more ignorant than a primary school child?

Seriously, I have grandchildren who are pretty obsessed with dinosaurs who would be able to answer Draad's questions.

Draad, the animal species that did survive the K-T mass extinction event include the majority of insects and many other terrestial invertabrates, deep sea fish, jawed fish,  the majority of amphibians, non-avian dinosaurs who evolved into birds, smaller reptiles, leatherback turtles, archosaurs who evolved into crocodiles and many small mammals that evolved and supplanted dinosaurs as the dominant species . . . and eventually evolved into apes and then man.

There is actually no good reason for such ignorance. Google is your friend.

Feb 07, 2019, 04:15

Aag damn Rooi, I know that. The fact is that all the species alive today were able to adapt to the changes in the environment , the extinct species not. It doesn't matter if it was sudden changes or gradual. Natural sellection. Survival of the fittest, evolution,  call it what you want.

Whoosh!!!

Feb 07, 2019, 05:38

It was not a case of adaptation (evolution) - which is a very slow process happening over many thousands and millions of years.

The larger creatures that were not killed instantly, starved to death due to lack of food, toxic air and not being able to get underground.  

The bigger they were the faster they died out. (in days, with some in months). They then became the food of the smaller creatures.

It was not a case of adapting- because the process was quick. Only small creatures in their current state were able to survive. These small creates DID NOT change. It was their current small state that allowed them to be sole survivors.

Noah Abraham then put the remainder on his boat and they all lived happily ever after in the young creationists adventure. :blush:


Feb 07, 2019, 06:26

It was not a case of adaptation (evolution) - 

Cirrect, they couldn't addapt, so they all died....Natural sellection at work.

Feb 07, 2019, 07:01

Draad. I don't want to sound condescending, but I really don't think you understand how evolution works. The fact is, basically none of the animals alive today survived the asteroid (or whatever the extinction event was), because at that time they didn't even exist. That is why the fossils disovered from that period are of animals that no longer exist, and there have been no fossils from that era of animals that are alive today. The animals alive today evolved from those tiny asteroid survivors. 

Feb 07, 2019, 07:25


Feb 07, 2019, 07:25

He doesn't get it bluebok. He'll be posting another "whoosh" soon as if it's the rest of us who are all stupid.

Feb 07, 2019, 17:31

Feb 07, 2019, 07:01

Draad. I don't want to sound condescending, but I really don't think you understand how evolution works. The fact is, basically none of the animals alive today survived the asteroid (or whatever the extinction event was), because at that time they didn't even exist. (I understand that and never disputed that). that,(that's why the fossils disovered from that period are of animals that no longer exist, and there have been no fossils from that era of animals that are alive today. The animals alive today evolved from those tiny asteroid survivors.  (That's my point. If the dinosaurs did not get wiped out, humans (and the rest of life as we know it) would probably not have evolved from what whatever species were left after the ELE. 

I believe This caused sthe confusion:

" Now, tell me, why did most of the life we know of today survive that?" (I do not mean that they existed in the form we know them today)"  All the species that survived the ELE had to adapt quickly to a vastly different planet in a very small time frame. Those species that couldn't went extinct...call it natural un-selection. After that sudden change in environment, Earth changed back to a "more normal" atmosphere and all the survivors gradually evolved to keep tread with the changing times.

65 million years ago
While we recognize that the "Age of Mammals" begins after the demise of the dinosaurs some 65 million years ago, the story of mammalian evolution begins well before their reign. One has to go back to a period 250 million years ago when the transition to mammals began in the form of mammal-like reptiles.



Feb 07, 2019, 18:15

If a nuclear bomb was detonated it would kill most life instantly, or in days. You cant adapt to a nuclear bomb. 


Any life that survived would be a small life that could go underground etc.
This small life never adapted- it was its current state/form that allowed it to survive.

Adapting is changing to your environment. A nuclear bomb or astroid effects are quick- and no life form can adapt that quickly. (e.g. instantly). 

Young earth creationists should leave science to those with minds that have already adapted. Case closed. 8-)

Feb 07, 2019, 22:00

Who is the YEC on this thread?

"Any life that survived would be a small life that could go underground etc.

This small life never adapted- it was its current state/form that allowed it to survive."

Almost true, it made it easy to adapt, for some or other reason it was "ready" to adapt. There was an element of luck.
Cockroaches will probably survive a nuclear holocaust.  It will (for argument sake) adapt to the post apocalyptic world and become the next intelligent life form in about 60 Million years...with a bit of luck for it and alot of bad luck for us. 

Feb 09, 2019, 09:35

Admittedly havent read all the posts on here but would obviously like to add my opinion.

This debate should always start as follows for me...

Are science and religion necessarily two opposing forces?

Anyone that creates a program has to do so within a construct. That construct will provide for the interpretation of code as well as providing a space for that interpretation to play out. 

The universe/multiverse could easily be the construct that God created to allow for the playing out of his code.

Evolution could easily be the software that God chose to allow for a continuous spawning of life as opposed to each organism having to be manufactured.

Studying biology, cosmology, mathematics and other fields in no way precludes God or goes against creationism. 

Saying it's either the big bang or God suggests that God could not have caused the big bang.

Again, the big bang may have been a tool, or it may be a spontaneous event.

God and science are only at odds with each other in man's tribal mind. 

The same way that medical research was considered heresy in the dark ages. 

Believe it or not, we're still somewhere on that continuim.

The second point for me is always...

A creator doesn't prove God.

Quite simple really. We might be a simulation. We might exist in a place that was created by an organism, a program or some other entity or technology that we don't have a name for.

Let's assume that we find out the universe was 100% designed by an intelligence.

Is that intelligence necessarily a "God"?

We'll create AI soon. In a few generations you'll be able enter a virtual environment filled with artificially intelligent  beings. Beings that have identical counterparts in other copies of the game, movie or story. They will be endowed with original emotions, intelligence, aspirations and so on. They will have free will and the ability to learn, limited  only by their environment and not by their cognition.

Still, they will have been created by us. 

Does that make us their Gods and does it give us the right to torture them for eternity if they don't behave as we please?

No. Obviously not.

"Your children are not YOUR children. They are the sons and daughters of life's longing for itself."

My personal belief is that we probably live inside of a created universe. 

Maybe God created it. Maybe it was IBM. Maybe we're a primary school science project playing out in one afternoon but with the time dilation dial set to max. He'll the poor kid that made us might even fail on the basis of a chaos imbalance in his design. We might be property. This could be one of thousands/millions/billions/trillions of chicken farms.

Regardless. I'm gonna live my own way and certainly not croak with a full set of balls.


Feb 09, 2019, 09:44

Rooi

Not sure if you know about this.

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/2018/11/14/greenland-crater-discovered-cause-younger-dryas/#.XF6DzFOxU0M

Suddenly we have a valid explanation for all the flood myths.

Also explains why so many ancient ruins seem to have taken damage from the same direction.

Bloody interesting.

Feb 09, 2019, 12:20

Gee that looks like an interesting site Plum...thanks for the link.

Feb 09, 2019, 12:25

Plum I was reading about that recently, it was first spotted from space. It has only recently been confirmed to be an asteroid/meteor. 

It is believed to have been pure iron, something like a square mile that hit the earth at like 30,000 miles per hour. 

Not as big as the one 65 million years ago in Mexico, but it may have been possible for wiping out species- as it is believed a significant amount went extinct around this time.

This event has raised questions that getting hit by Asteroids and Meteors are much more common than previously believed. 

Some other recent events have also raised questions like the Sphynx may be much older than originally believed- and not actually built by the Egyptians. With this in mind, human civilisation might be much older than originally believed. Recently a civilisation was found that is was over 20,000 years old, unlike the 10,000 years when man first started to farm and build towns. 

There is some speculation that a meteor/asteroid may have wiped out a previously developed advanced civilisation linked - but there is little evidence other than perhaps the Spyhnx. The pyramids themselves are also pretty confusing as there are built at certain points over the world aligned to the stars and the earth radius. 

A recent study found that man was very close to extinction about 50,000 years ago, with something like 10,000 people around the whole world. 

Feb 09, 2019, 12:34

Scientists also thought they had charted all the comets, asteroids and meteors that had a potential collision course with earth. However, one was spotted recently only "after" it just went past between the earth and moon.


Then there is Oumuamua that is may not even be from our solar system that just randomly flew past on its own trajectory. 


Feb 09, 2019, 14:37

Sharkbok, thanks, I didn't know about that. Very interestuing. 


I think our planet has been peppered with comets and meteorites over all the billions of years and the fact that we're discovering new craters as big as that so relatively recently would confirm that. 

Just imagine how many impact craters have eroded away or been absorbed by plate tectonics over so many billions of years?

Feb 09, 2019, 14:41

Shark

Have you seen the comparative map of heart's sea levels?

Apparently over a very short period of time(days) the sea level rose about 250 feet, about 12000 years ago.

From Alaska to Eastern Russia there was a continent sized area filled with animals that was instantly covered.

Probably why they're finding and will continue to find so many submerged towns and structures around the world.

Also don't know if you've ever seen the old stone ruins around the Nelspruit area. There are literally thousands(Edit Millions) of them. Some still exposed and others covered by vegetation. 

Most of those structures are circular yet have no doors or windows. It's claimed they were cattle enclosures. 

Was in the area for weekend some years ago and found some of the structures on Google earth. When there to check them out. 

Here's the strange thing. The flat rocks they're made from make a high pitched pinging sound when you hit them. 

There are some crazy theories about those sites. On the same trip I also visited a site called Adam's Calendar. It sits on the edge of the Barbeton impact crator. The rock formations line up with the equinoxes and solstices as they were...180000 years ago.

Considering the amount of rocks all these structures comprise, it points to, at the very least, that area having a much greater population for a much longer period of time, much further back in history than what current thinking would suggest.

If you've not heard about this before you might find it interesting to research the stone circles in Mapumalanga.

Feb 09, 2019, 14:47

Apologies for the typos above. I tried to edit but the edit function seems to not be available.

Feb 11, 2019, 08:51

Aaah that's better

Feb 11, 2019, 10:35

I have a family member who will be moving to Nelspruit soon and I'll be spending more time there. Will definitely check out those ruins when I'm there.

"Here's the strange thing. The flat rocks they're made from make a high pitched pinging sound when you hit them. "

Makes me wonder who was the first guy to think to himself, hmmmm . . . let me punch this rock really hard and see what sound it makes . . . 

Feb 11, 2019, 11:07

Rooi

I just thought that the rocks appeared to have a high metal content so took another rocked and banged on them. Hadn't seen or heard of anyone doing it before. 

I have a video of it actually. Will see if can post it to youtube and will post a link. 

It's amazing how many of those ruins you can see on Google earth. They're literally everywhere there.

And just to make that weekend even weirder, I met Michael Tellinger's wife and son at Old Joe's Kaya(where we stayed for the weekend).


 
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