Biologist says Gum trees to blame in Bush fires

Well they are indigenous to Australia but I don't think he's wrong.

Once when we were fishing at a dam just out of Underberg on the Kokstad road I noticed a fire in the distance in either a Mondi or Sappi plantation but being so far away it did not faze me. But there was a warm Berg wind blowing towards us and I noticed the fire growing in size and moving at a concerning pace...accompanied loud explosions. On green gums there is a lot of resin that once temperatures increase that resin explodes given off intense heat. The fire about, 2 or 3 kilometers away and we wisely decided to move out and by the time we had finally packed up and leaving it had gained perhaps only 1 klm away...you could feel the intense heat and although there was a clearing between the dam and the plantation it was only about 400-500 metres apart . Does not matter that heat will incinerate you.

We got away just it time. Very scary stuff...always respect fires...grass fires too with wind in winter can move at 14 klms an hour...no man can out run that.

Australia's bushfires blamed on gum trees by biologist Jeremy Griffith | Daily Mail Online

Makes a lot more sense than a one degree increase in temperatures.

SB

You never learn - do you    The trees is not causing the problem snow flake - it is the undergrowth that cause spread of fires and heat set the trees alight with greater combustion being in evidence.  The wonderful man-made change with disastrous consequences - namely non-maintenance o f undergrowth occurs, because of sound "environmental" theoretical reasons the Green "ous" comes up with, .         

SB

You never learn - do you    The trees is not causing the problem snow flake - it is the undergrowth that cause spread of fires and heat set them alight with greater combustion being in evidence.  The wonderful man-made change with disastrous consequences - namely non-maintenance -f undergrowth occurs, because of sound "environmental" theoretical reasons the Green "ous" comes up with, .         

If they were the cause, there would have to be something particularly different about these trees this year than other years. (Which seems unlikely)

Yes, and the difference is called arsonists. Did you notice how  the fires SIMULTANEOUSLY broke out in in various bushes/plantations in NSW .

Furthermore: How on earth can those in control of preparing the fire brakes, expect how highly combustible  material could help in a fire break to stop a fire?

I have no proof, but these fires seems a bit too much orchestrated.

@Blikkies, there have certainly been more arsonists caught this year, than say last year. 

From this the next question is why has their been more arsonists this year, and what % of fires they are responsible for. Is this an orchestrated effort, or just random individuals. 

My learned friends, I'm pleased to tell you that our federal government is instituting a royal commission of inquiry into our most recent devastating fires, I can also tell you that the inquiry will run independently of any individual state inquiries. 

Until it's work is completed all commentary by non-experts on the reasons as to why the fires were more devastating than previous is based on speculation.

What we do know is that the federal government was given 7/8 months advanced warning of the pending dangerous fires, that large parts of Australia had been in prolonged drought, that preparation to minimize the effects of the fires were made, that we experienced record high temperatures coinciding with the fires, that the fires were sparked by dry lightning and that gale force winds played a major role in spreading them, that Blue Gum trees give off an oil and is a major contributor and that arsonist to a lesser extent played a part in igniting parched grasslands.

The good news is that large parts of the country has received large falls of rain ranging from 5-100mm and the rain has fallen in fire-affected areas. We are also experiencing cooler temperatures. The states of Queensland, NSW and large parts of Victoria which were the three main states affected by the fires are now free of fires. As far as I know there is only one fire still going that's at an emergency level and that is on French Island in Victoria.

The haze which I personally experienced past Wednesday in Melbourne disappeared after a solid and sustained drenching on Thursday but on the downside whatever was in the air has swept into rivers choking it of oxygen causing the death of thousands of fish.

It will take many years to recover, whole towns have been decimated, so also are vineyards, orchards and businesses. Some businesses will never recover. An estimated 1.5 billion animals perished. The federal government has allocated an initial $2 billion in assistance of which $40 million has been granted to charities for immediate help to those who need food, clothes and shelter. Major banks are also lending a hand by making all sorts of concessions.

A bravery award was handed to the wife of a 28 year old volunteer whose truck was overturned in a fire tornado.....so sad, so tragic......we will remember them.

I t hank you for your interest.

Denny

Thanks for the info one can only hope the devastation is over, but is the same situation to be prevented in future,    The fact is that if the Royal Commission uses a "Greens: cover up process it will never solve the problem and a repeat is very possible,   

I have some observations to make and those are just from personal experience.  Most SA people have seen many thunderstorms in their lives - some nearer to lightning strikes than others,  The question which is always advertised widely us never hide under trees in a lightning storm.  Many people in SA died because they are doing exactly that, but how many of the strikes resulted in the trees starting to burn as a result of the strike?  Very few I believe.  When as a kid living on the historic farm Zeekoegat - lightning stuck a more than 200 year old tree about 20 meters from the main house.   It split the trunk of the tree down the middle - but no fire resulted.  A lightning strike less than 15 meters from my home in Tinley Manor Beach did not set the wooden telephone pole alight, it just destroyed the electronic equipment in the house.

It is a fact that gum trees are indigenous to Australia.   Gum wood is harder than oak and pine wood and is likely to have more combustion when catching fire then other tree species,   The same applies to another Australian indigenous plant what we call "rooipitjie bos"  Fires of areas covered by those plants last year destroyed large areas in the Riversdale area last year,   These fires were started by arsonists.  Similar to gum trees - rooipitjie plants have hard wood  and is the favoured braai wood for many and is used to produce charcoal sold throughout SA.   Once it catches fire it is very hard to contain with a high combustion capacity,

The main problem is that dried undergrowth under trees if not properly maintained and controlled is the reason for many fires started - mostly by natural causes.   In the fynbos mountain areas fires are required for natural renewal of plant life.   Try and start raising protea plants from seed and you will get nowhere without heating and smoking the seed,   In nature that heating and smoking stemmed fires,   

I still maintain that fires became a huge problem in Australia because of -

*   lack of proper maintenance if undergrowth in afforested areas - augmented by dry conditions  but bearing in mind that this is not the first time that fires broke out in the Blue Mountain outside Sydney and in other areas - it is a regular annual phenomenon but nit ion the cale it was this year; and

*   the higher combustion of indigenous hard wood plants in Australia.

I hope the outcome is not the "global warming" chants - that will not solve the problem and will in my opinion lead to future repeats of the catastrophe.           

                  .                       

Mike is right in his point about undergrowth...that is indeed a catalyst but the point the biologist is making is once gums alight with a breeze and more and more are ignited it's virtually impossible to stop because green gum are loaded with resin which explodes in intense heat. As I said I saw it with own eyes.

And yes one of the main solutions is to strictly clear all undergrowth, in KZN especially in winter and the opposite in winter rainful areas...but ideally it always should be cleared. Some years ago We used to hike and fish in the Dargle forest where I spoke to the forester about fire dangers and this was his chief concern...the clearing...he also said no nobody is allowed to smoke when fishing in this area. A little spark fanned by continous wind amongst dried gum leaves and pine needles even slightly damp can eventually alight and with nobody there to extinguish can become a blazing inferno.

If you speak to those guys at Saasveld, George, Knysna areas will tell you exactly the same. In Australia it is even more applicable.

The Aborigines traditionally used burnt back fires to prevent bigger fires...but only they knew how to do it. They have some uncanny instinct that has taught them how to do it over hundreds of years. The white man still has to learn. I believe this is true.

In Africa in the true Bushveld up North bush fires are natural and are caused by lightning but nature and the environment adapts and recovers very well.

The Australian biologist is correct however in the context he means.

However if it is arsonists or pyromaniacs which it probably is...there are a lot of sicko's out there in this perverted world there is nothing to ultimately prevent this except to catch these bastards and sentence them to life imprisonment...even that is too lenient. In the old days they would have received a death sentence...it is even worst than treason.

Of course Mike is right, what the two of you are saying is common knowledge and has been for yonks. Mike keeps banging away about our poor forestry management........utter BS! He must think that our forests are the same size as his backyard. Backburning is and has been an ongoing practice for as long as I can remember.

What we need is a gigantic vacuum cleaner......actually we need quite a few with an eye to the enormity of the exercise........do you guys know of any for sale?

You're pushing the Murdoch line by putting the blame on arsonists. I'm not denying they played a role, to what extent is unsure but I note your point works both ways......sure there was undergrowth and gum trees last year and the year before and the year before but so too were the pyromaniacs.

 I'll explain again but before I go there you need to understand that Australia is the hottest continent and that the year 2019 was the hottest on record.

It's also important to understand that unlike last year and the year before the Federal Government had been given 8 months warning of conditions favourable to catastrophic fires, none were given in the preceding years because those conditions weren't expected. As a matter of fact they were warned as early as April of 2019. 

Spot the difference?

Spit the Rupert from your jaws.

Denny stop talking shit   There is not a single Australian forest the size of some of the afforested areas in SA - they have none the size of Manzengwenya and Weza and many others,    There are areas where the Aussie plantations comprises of more than 50  000 hectares apiece  and nearly a  hundred  kilometers in travelling through them in size.  So try again Denny and produce evidence, 

Go to the following website a nd see whether Australia figure anywhere in the data column:-

https://www.forestry.co.za/uploads/File/industry_info/statistical_data/new%20layout/South%20African%20Forestry%20&%20Forest%20Products%20Indus.    

I think we all are missing the point.

Natural Bush (Indigenous) is vastly different in a lot of ways to cultivated forests which are unnatural, except perhaps places like Knysna forests but Paper manufacturers all over the world plant trees (most of them are alien) in our country Sappi and Mondi being the 2 biggest ones. It unfortunately is an evil economic necessity which destroys the ecology...the yellow woods. stink woods, hard pear being the exception here at home that are used in upmarket making of furniture and they are indigenous.

To add to that a lot of things burn that would NOT naturally because of the intensity...ie vineyards in South Australia were burnt to the ground...vine stumps do burn but only when dry and make the best braai wood but not when green naturally.

Logic tells me definitely these were started by some sick person or persons...other factors can be added to the intensity and destructiveness of it...ie conservation, maintenance, security and policing, or should I say the lack of and proximity of dwellings and buildings but these are only catalysts.

Sharkbok has a point...indigenous (natural) bush you can't clear or shouldn't.

The developement of mankind and population growth is at loggerheads with nature, especially when you get perverted people starting fires. The world is breeding some very dangerous people out there because the lack of tough penalties and prosecutions for people who murder, destroy countries and the lives of other people. Australia like SA must execute such people like they do in USA and China. That's the only language that these types understand. The severity of the crime warants this for our survival.

But prevention is better than cure.

Seb

You certainly has a point.  The natural bush areas in SA has been reduced massively over the centuries.    By the 18th century vast areas in he Southern Cape was covered by indigenous trees.  The buildings on the farm where I grew up were built in 1768, 1795 and 1804 and the timber used were stinkwod and yellow wood  harvested locally in the Riversdale area.   At present there is nothing like that left.

At he time I was working in the Forestry department the same rules as to undergrowth  in plantations applied to indigenous forest areas as well.   So I assume they are still in place.  

Incidentally a large part of Weza in fact is indigenous as well- having in the main yellowwood trees.   It is even made more so by the huge dagga plants covering the undergrowth areas and used for export to Europe.      

I have a good school mate that runs Harding Timbers...his sons now run it mainly and he owns forests in the Weza and that Lodge off the national road to the Cape.

Once we took a long walk through those forests. There is a huge part of it indigeneous but sadly the bulk of it is pine and gum. He also has forests in Richmond KZN.

He is very wealthy and at one stage a close friend and a good sportsman when young...he bowled Mike Proctor out with a full toss...LOL...it was quite funny in a match between Hilton and Maritzburg College.

They made their bucks by producing telephone poles for SA and for the rest of Africa...they now will have a problem because eventually land lines will be replaced by modern systems.

They won't suffer though because timber is never enough unfortunately and is the best farming enterprise...very, very lucrative.

Mike, what evidence do I need to supply?

The fact that backburning and fire hazard reduction was acted upon as far back as April last year after the government was warned about predicted adverse conditions leading into our Spring which turned out to be the hottest on record.

How the hell would you know that our forests are poorly managed? Show me the evidence.

Why in Hell did this happen this year but not last year, or the year before or even the year before that? Were the pyromaniacs on strike?.... the gum trees were there so too the undergrowth....so why this year starting in November which by the way was our hottest Spring on record.

So go ahead the pair of you, show me proof of arsonists being mostly responsible for starting the fires.......proof, not your logic or guesswork.

So far the facts are:

1. There were more fires this year, and more severe than last year, or any recent years.

2. It was hotter this year compared to last year

3. There were gum trees and undergrowth this year and last year. There are no apparent differences here. It is like saying there was grass to burn. It is not as if last year there was no grass to burn. 

4. There were more people arrested for being arsonists this year. It remains to be seen what % of the fires were caused by arsonists. 

So the investigation will need to be completed to try to determine the major differences this year from last year. This is the only sensible way to work out the cause. At this stage, the biggest difference appears to be the dryer weather. However, this may not be the only cause. 

Correct.....to a certain degree.

The investigation(s) will determine the truth.....I must add that Murdoch owns 70% of our media outlets and he's been holding arsonist as the main cause of the fires.

But that aside, my own view is that of our people on the ground, why wouldn't I?.... they predicted the seriousness of the situation very early in the piece and have been proven to be spot on.

The biggest difference between the years is a combination of prolonged drought, record heat starting in our Spring, parched undergrowth and gale force winds. That combination did not exist in previous years.

And as I've said, everyone who's managed to escape the fires has made mention of the speed with which it travelled. It would jump the road and start another fire and/or blow embers about and/or travel at gale force speed with temps at around 450c.

To give you some idea, a firie's truck was overturned by tornado fire.

But yes to trim a long story....the conditions were different this time round.

@Denny

Sky appears to be far more right-wing reporting in Australia than it is in the UK. That is a surprise that one Media channel would have a different leaning ideology in other places

Mate, the bastard is responsible for toppling or changing our government whether that be at state or federal level. I don't like the prick. The current federal PM is a conservative, I don't mind him even though he's a Murdoch man. He's going to be under the cosh for negligence with regards to the fires although he might get away with it seeing as we've just had an election. Murdoch owns several newspapers, radio and TV and they all spew his message.

Problem we have is that the opposition Labour Party is useless.  

SB

Not really as left wing in the UK as for instance the BBC.   The fact is that media houses looks for a deficiency in the media market and then use that deficiency to operate in.   In all of the UK, USA and Australia there was an absence in moderate reporting on TV and they moved in to fill that moderate sphere.   None are radical conservative as you claim they are - they merely are objective in what they are reporting,     

How can both Sky views be objective, if their ideological stance is different in the UK vs Australia? They cant both be accurate. If one is correct or more correct. that implies the other is less correct or incorrect.  

"......they merely are objective in what they are reporting,"

Really?

Actually, I find that hilarious. 

Denny we are all speculating and have theories...perhaps some of us have guessed right and others not...pyromaniacs do exist though...in the Western Cape they have proof of this...Table Mountain and it's surrounds are the result of this, Hermanus, that spread too all over that fynbos area, where Mike lives too in the dry summer fybos wheat growing area too, the recent Knysna disaster.

I'm not sure if they found out the cause but yes there are very sick people around.

We have too people setting sugar alight when there grievances amongst farm workers.

And yes Denny we don't know.

It's a very troubling though...the result in Oz, the cost, the loss of lives and property and the effect on the economy too ghastly to contemplate.

One wonders how insurance companies will survive after this...unless there are clauses such as war and natural disasters such as this with exclusions.

Australia you have all our heartfelt sympathies and congrats to those like Nicole Kidman,Chris Hemsworth,Elton John,Leonardo DiCaprio, Maria Sharapova, Russell Crowe, Shane Warne,Novak Djokovic,Kylie Jenner,Alecia Beth Moore and many others for the relief fund...it shows that you all have your hearts in the right place.

A tremendous effort.

SB

It depends entirely on the vacant areas in the media market.   We have all of the following on the DSTV channels in SA:-

400   BBC

401   CNN

402   Sky (UK)

406   Al Jazeera

407   Russia 1

408   Bloomberg

I watch Sky UK regularly and  tune into BBC, CNN and Al Jazeera and even Russia 1 occasionally.   CNN is really unbearable - for instance when the plane was shot down  and anti- Government protests occurred - they have a strip at the bottom about the protests - but never mentioned it on commentary for 20 minutes - while discussing Trump's impeachment only.   I wanted to hear from them about the protests - but NOTHING.   Al Jazeera did discuss the protests and so did Russia I.   Maybe it was only a week after they predicted the start of World War III and the narrative did not follow their yarns.                     

The "dry lightning" seemed to have been the final ingredient for the "perfect  blaze"...how often does this happen in Australia?

There is a tremendous effort taking place from a variety of sources as we speak to get the country back to normal again, Australians are uniting like never before and I have full confidence that we'll get there over a period of time. 1 Billion+ animals perished, vineyards if planted today will only reap benefits in 5 years time. But then there are our small businesses who provide employment in outback communities, glad to say they're receiving all sorts of help, from interest free loans to cash handouts.

Did you know that Australia is the only country in the world that has never had a recession in 28 years? That we're not a divided nation even though we are home to 200 different nationalities.

We'll get there.

And along the way we'll remember an d respect those who perished in horrible circumstances.

Not sure Draad but I'll try and find out. We experienced the same with other fire disasters like for example "Ash Wednesday" and "Black Friday" so I'd say it's nothing new. A lot depends on the conditions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ash_Wednesday_bushfires

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Friday_bushfires

No doubt this year the potential was greater....after some years with strong rainfall building up the growth, followed by a drought. The usual cycle for these climates. 

Prior similar conditions also saw massive fires in Oz...the fact that it's the hottest by a degree or two would make little difference.

But the fires have to be started. The best  informed guess is that fire initiation would follow prior experience which looks as follows:

The point is Australia can doing nothing about global warming, it's economy is too small. But it can do something about forestry and about arson. That should be the focus.

Being used as a pawn in the Global Warming Debate is not going to  reduce the risk.

Control the things you can control.

"Control the things you can control."

Indeed...and they will be better prepared in the future, regardless of the conditions...sometimes it takes a desaster to wake up.

Irrespective of what the reasons are for this devastation I am sure all the reasons will be uncovered and hopefully, corrective action will be introduced and applied for the future if at all possible.

The loss of life in animals and humans will take tears to recover if ever as will the rebuilding of homes, businesses, and infrastructure.

The financial burden on the Australian economy will be enormous and will be a burden for years.

We can only hope and pray that such a tragedy never again occurs in our lifetime and that the world's bigger economies will step up with the necessary relief both financial and material.

Perhaps it is finally time for the World Bank to put their money to good use for once.

The scope of this devastation is difficult to grasp even with all the media coverage.

God Bless and protect Australia and all the people of that great continent.

Something like a quarter of the koala bears lost....this is no time for political grandstanding .

Tx AJ.

.".....sometimes it takes a desaster to wake up."

Oh, so this is the first time Australia has faced a catastrophic fire disaster.

My, that's interesting, we really do need to wake up seeing we haven't learned from several previous disasters.

Well Denny, ofcourse there  were previous desasters, but not nearly on the same scale as now...and, like you said, they had months warning that this season would be abnormal conditions. Obviously they were surprised by the scale of the destruction, but they will be even better prepared next time. 

I wasn't implying that anyone was lax or "asleep", just not 100% up to speed as to the most extreme possibilities. The "what if" got bigger and the eventuality being prepared for in the future will be bigger.

Maybe they did everything humanly possible already, but it's likely that someone will come up with a plan to do something even better next time.

A plan to do better? 

Sure, there was one, all it needed was for our Prime Minister to withdraw his head from Murdoch's arse to listen to our experts' recommendations. But no, he dismissed having a meeting with them and instead flew off to have a holiday in Jamaica totally dismissive of the pending catastrophe. 

Other than that I guess we can hide a C opper behind every tree in the country with the hope of bagging a handful of arsonists.

And oh I forget, Mike and Sebastian are hunting around for extra large groundcover extractors.