"Look at what your defending, then look in the mirror."
Law and order...I'm living in a lawless mess with uncontrolled immigration having already destroyed my country...the USA still have law and order...if a ICE officer shot someone without reason, he will be prosecuted to the full extent of the law...this hysterical nonsense will come to an en soon...when the criminal instigators are behind bars.
Moz, yes, you look at numbers. I know that by now. But I also know context gets discarded.
ICE is a civil enforcement agency. It's not prison. It is not supposed to punish people.
According to the Guardian, many of those held and who died were asylum seekers, long term residents, and people with no criminal convictions, some of whom had lived and worked in the US for years.
I don’t know how “woke” the Guardian is, but this is their reporting, not mine. In 2025, ICE custody deaths hit the highest number in about 20 years while detentions shot up under Trump.
There are already more deaths this year. Many of the people who died were detained after the Trump immigration push increased arrests and holding numbers.
On top of that, people are being shot and killed during enforcement operations far from the border. A 37-year-old ICU nurse, Alex Pretti, was shot dead in Minneapolis. Before that, Renée Good was killed by an ICE agent.
These are American cities, not war zones. This is not normal policing. It looks like heavy enforcement with little transparency and zero consequences. You talk about the endgame being secure borders and rules. Fine. I’m not against borders or rules.
But under that banner, people who are legally supposed to be in the US are being hunted down. Citizens are getting dragged into this because they stand up for neighbours and friends they’ve known for years. Taxpayers are getting caught up and even killed in the process.
Then there’s the Venezuela and Greenland nonsense. That isn’t about helping anyone. It’s about resources. Oil in Venezuela. Rare minerals in Greenland.
The “help” talk is secondary. It's all about Greed and Money. So throwing around jail death rates or calling criticism “woke” doesn’t answer the real questions.
Why are people dying in civil detention? Why are unarmed or detained people being shot? Why do so many Americans think ICE has gone too far?
That’s the issue. Not cheddar prices. Not spin. Accountability.
DB I am not arguing against law and order. I’m for law and order too.The question is how far it goes and who pays the price when it goes too far.
Law and order is not supposed to mean innocent people losing their lives, or agents acting with force first and accountability later. It’s not supposed to turn into power trips where everything gets justified as necessary
Yes, the US still has more law and order than our rotten country. I am not disputing that. But that doesn’t mean abuse can be ignored or explained away.
When people die in civil detention, or during enforcement actions far from the border, the response cannot be: trust the system and move on.
Saying an officer will be prosecuted “if” there was no reason is easy. What people are questioning is transparency, oversight, and how often there are real consequences.
That’s basic accountability. Immigration needs rules. Borders need control. Fine. But when enforcement starts harming citizens, and people who are not criminals, then something is broken.
Law and order without accountability stops being law and order. It becomes force. That’s the issue I am trying to raise.
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It's simply, if you come into a country illegally you must suffer the consequences if you get caught...laws a there for a reason.
Empathy is one thing...but not at the cost of law and order...there's a slow war going on between two sides only.
Nobody would have suffered anything if the didn't resist arrest or tried to interfere with law inforcemen officials doing their jobs...these aren't innocent people...they are obstructing justice aggressively and the want to cry foul when things go sideways...this happens in an environment where ice officers have been killed and their lives threatened.
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"Better than the constant whiff of a sewer you give off."
Indeed.
Tell me, Stav, do you see a lot of similarities between Moffie and Bozo?
And I mean, a lot!
DB comparing Empathy versus law and order is a false choice in my opinion. Nobody is saying law and order should not be enforced. But enforcement should come with responsibility and accountability.
If someone enters a country illegally and gets caught, arrest them, process them, deport them. That’s the law.
But that does not mean people must be shot or killed. Law enforcement is supposed to control situations in a way that preserves life wherever possible.
You talk about law and order as if it overrides everything else. Law and order only works if it is fair, transparent, and proportional.
Killing people who are unarmed or not posing an immediate threat is radicalism. If someone pulls a gun or tries to kill people, self defence applies.
But even then, officers are trained to disable a suspect, not to kill as a first option. Resistance alone does not justify lethal force. People resist arrest all the time. That does not give police the right to kill them.
You also keep grouping everyone together as criminals. That’s not straight forward. Many undocumented people have lived there for years, worked, paid taxes, and committed no violent crimes.
Those are not hardened criminals. The irony is that the truly dangerous criminals are often still alive, while innocent people end up dead. You say ICE officers are being killed and their lives threatened.
There is no evidence of ICE officers being routinely killed by illegal immigrants during immigration enforcement. Since ICE was created in 2003, only two agents have been murdered, as sad as that is and i condemn that to, neither was killed during a normal immigration enforcement operation inside the US.
One was murdered at home in 2005 by an escaped US convict, and the other was Jaime Zapata, killed in Mexico in 2011 during a cartel ambush.
As i mentioned before: The mandate of law enforcement is to protect life first, including their own and the lives of civilians. Deportation is the remedy here, not killing people.
Law and order yes, but not at all costs.
That reasoning is authoritarian, and something we should appose.
Piers’ guest makes a really provocative defense of Trump as an expansionist President, and rather than address that, Piers immediately asks him whether as an Immigrant he is concerned about ICE. Lock brain.
Undocumented people are in the country illegally and must commit social security fraud just to be able to work...ICE agents are violently prevented from doing their duty...a crime on it's own...you either enforce the entire law or you don't...South Africa is a prime example of what happens if its applied selectively...chaos.
The criminal thing is misleading. A very nice man who maintained one of our gardens was arrested and deported. He had been in the States for many years, had kids in the local soccer team. There wasn’t anything that was too much trouble. But he had a drinking problem and several driving under the influence convictions….so an easy target and gone.
This was clearly a miscarriage of justice, even if legal. There are drug peddlers who are dangerous…they should be gone. Making a distinction between those two types of would have been humane. Namely deport the dangerous criminals, document the other illegals and give them conditional visas and make the border secure.
But even that approach would have still provided enough fodder for Trump’s opponents. There was no way to do this that would have universal support. Nearly half the country doesn’t see a problem with wide open borders.
DB, not every undocumented person is breaking the law or committing social security fraud. Many are there legally or haven’t committed fraud. Saying everyone is guilty is generalizing.
Yes, ICE agents have been attacked or blocked in some cases. But two incidents in 2005 and 2011 don’t mean the whole system is under constant attack. That doesn’t justify killing or harming innocent people. You have to be conscientious, responsible, and accountable.
Enforce the law, yes. But don’t treat everyone the same. Real criminals and innocent people are not the same. That’s a logical conclusion.
Authority has to be applied carefully and selectively, with judgment. Authority without conscience is authoritarian. You’re pushing a one sided narrative that makes it sound like everyone is a criminal and in reality it's much different.
Common sense, responsibility, accountability...these are what matter. A few bad apples don’t make the whole bunch guilty. DB stop conveniently dismissing that fact.
I agree Moz, about the criminal thing being misleading. Your example of the man who maintained the gardens is a good one.
He’d been in the country for years, had kids in the local soccer team, and yet he was deported over drinking problems.That was clearly a miscarriage of justice. He deserved better treatment.
This is exactly the kind of approach I’ve been talking about. Decisions should be fair and conscientious, not forceful dominance authority like we’ve seen with ICE agents on the ground.
Deport dangerous criminals, but treat the others humanely. Document them, give conditional visas, make borders secure. That’s proper law enforcement.
You say even this approach would still give fodder to Trump’s opponents. I disagree. If things were handled like your example, most of the problems would not exist.
People wouldn’t be killed, innocent residents wouldn’t be dragged into enforcement, and the backlash would be far less. I also agree that open borders are a problem.
No country should just allow everyone in unchecked, and South Africa is the same. But authority should be fair, accountable, and humane. That’s what real law and order should look like.
You cannot work in the USA without a SS number...if you are undocumented you don't have a SS number...it's that simple...
Just to be clear. He was deported because he had several driving under the influence convictions. Sad story, the man plays the piano exquisitely….he played at a party we once had. But when you have an operation as vast as this, the rules are going to be strict.
As with most things in life there are two sides to the story, but against all these unfair examples there are the 82,000 drug deaths in the USA in 2024. I only 1% of the deportees are drug dealers that’s potentially 820 lives that may have been saved.
"I only 1% of the deportees are drug dealers that’s potentially 820 lives that may have been saved. "
What?
So tell us Moffie, are you going to admit you made a mistake and said "I" instead of "if" . . . which of course would make you a stinking and childish hypocrite . . . or are you going to pretend that your English usage here is correct and we're all too stupid to understand what you were trying to say?
Oh and a comma after the word "dealers" would be appropriate in this case. Just trying to teach you the basics. Don't implode now.
So which is it?
DB, being “undocumented” means a person lacks proper immigration papers and usually does not have a Social Security number.
Yes, that is a violation of immigration law. That is the only law involved: legal status.
It does not automatically mean fraud, theft, violence, or abusing social systems.
So when the Guardian says “many are here legally or haven’t committed fraud,” the point is that status alone doesn’t equal broader criminality.
Someone can be undocumented and still not be committing fraud or harming anyone. Being undocumented = illegal status. Being a criminal = committing additional crimes.
Lumping the two together is misleading. That distinction is exactly what I’m pointing out.
Bowie was right... this is not America
Have you ever been to America Blob?
3 holidays ... Hawaii LA NY
Nobody would have suffered anything if the didn't resist arrest or tried to interfere with law inforcemen officials doing their jobs...these aren't innocent people...they are obstructing justice aggressively and the want to cry foul when things go sideways...this happens in an environment where ice officers have been killed and their lives threatened.
Spot on
Let's not pretend that these people are innocent bystanders.....
I see one ICE officer recently had part of his finger bitten off completely in a scuffle, and had to carry it around in a small plastic jar.
Just like we are witnessing heavily aggressive ICE agents in some cases, who should be dealt with accordingly, you are also seeing an increase in very aggressive agitators as well, which will only increase cases where fatalities could occur.
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No POTUS has caused more division, more chaos, more tension and more bitterness across the USA than Trump.
"No POTUS has caused more division, more chaos, more tension and more bitterness across the USA than Trump."
I forget to add, no POTUS has thrown an ally under the bus neither has he caused division between the USA and the EU.
And no POTUS has cozied up to a murdering dictator.
Nice Blob but the country’s heart also beats in places like Kansas City. I have lived in both New York and LA, which I liked. I haven’t been to Hawaii in about 20 years but actually used to stop off quite regularly coming back from the penal colony. People tell me it’s lost some of it’s sleepy charm.
m
The absence of universality is staggering. Liberalism is cooked. Trump has exposed it. No one now advocates based on its tenets. They are gone.
Law and order... It is very funny. Sharia is law and order. The Iranian government is law and order. Liberals can no longer accept their own tenets.
It is very funny.
This thread reads cheap statistical attempts at manipulation. Once could wonder if it is safer to be a kid in Gazza, in danger of being sniped by a liberal israeli soldier or in the US under ICE scrutiny. Or if terrorist attacks put more in danger young adults than ICE.
It is very funny. Liberals are gone: they need to reframe and reframe. The funniest part of it is that they are now running out of framework permutations. They can no longer dance on a tune without experiencing they have already burnt out this tune before.
And of course, moral relativism, peeps, moral relativism. You know what liberals keep harping about when it is convenient for them.
tick tok...tick tok...
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How effing sad ... here's me thinking Rogan exited the rabbit hole.
SIES.
I feel like I'm living on a alien planet sometimes.
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Reminder that your political party should not dictate whether or not you think this was a murder
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This is how Alex Jones sounded 20 years ago
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Cmon Joe....I carry 2 extra mags to the fkn bathroom
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Coincidentally NOBODY is talking about the EPSTEIN FILES which is still violating Federal Law to release ALL the Files.
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Isn't this the guy who crashed out because he couldn't open a pickle jar?
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With the fucking gambling add dude This is the most dystopian shit I have ever seen
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Dude there is a video where it shows the officer grabbing the gun before he gets shot. Are you blind???
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Is that the same man whose wife has kids from 3 different men?
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We saw it all, with our own eyes. Are people really trying to convince us our eyes are lying to us.
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Does everyone remember how Greg in Meet the Fockers was a nurse?
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I’m glad the comment section is smart.
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This conversation is batshit insane.
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Joe changes his views depending on guest. Wth
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So their argument is a person with a CCP is supposed to have more training than ICE and Border Patrol agents? WTF???
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I live in Texas and our 2A protestors would say that Pretti didn’t have a large enough gun. And that he should have had more guns and ammo on him.
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If you don't see the Pretti case as it is, then you have been programmed and you are in danger of becoming sheep
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I got my banana and rice ready for this. Its time to lear
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"EVERY RECORD HAS BEEN DESTROYED OR FALSIFIED, EVERY BOOK REWRITTEN, EVERY PICTURE HAS BEEN REPAINTED, EVERY STATUE AND STREET BUILDING HAS BEEN RENAMED, EVERY DATE HAS BEEN ALTERED. AND THE PROCESS IS CONTINUING DAY BY DAY AND MINUTE BY MINUTE. HISTORY HAS STOPPED. NOTHING EXISTS EXCEPT AN ENDLESS PRESENT IN WHICH THE PARTY IS ALWAYS RIGHT." George Orwell
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People have the right to protest, they do not have the right to interfere in a government operation. You can not block roads, throw rocks, hit, obstruct.
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