Poor Stav! Boris Johnson is right: Britain is facing a golden age!

Although there may be some initial hiccups Britain is set to thrive. Stav wvll be left red faced again. The Boris Withdrawal Agreement passed in the Commons by 124 votes. Showing many leavers in other parties voted for the bill. Not all leavers voted Tory.

The nutjob Stav has been left scratching his head wonderi ng how he got it all so wrong!

OPTIMISM can be infectious. Sometimes it can even become a self-fulfilling prophecy as upbeat people inspire those around them to achieve greater things.

There has not been much of it about in British politics over the past three years, during the quagmire of trench warfare over Brexit. Indeed, Theresa May approached the subject with all the trepidation of someone who had accepted they must undergo an amputation below the knee in order to stop gangrene setting in. 

And the packed Tory benches roared with approval. With a majority of 80 behind him and Labour flat on its back, there is an inescapable sense that Johnson is right – the logjam has finally been broken and pent-up political energy is ­flowing once again. 

It helped enormously that the key Brexit-blocking MPs were no more. There was no John Bercow to intervene on the Prime Minister with partial comments from the Speaker’s Chair, no Dominic Grieve or Philip Hammond to put the knife in from his own side and every Tory MP from the last “rotten parliament” who defected or went independent in order to obstruct Brexit had been swept away. hahahahahahahahahahaha

And it isn’t only on our departure from the EU that a sense of national momentum has been regained. On almost every important policy area – from law and order to rebalancing the economy, from the NHS to immigration – the new Johnson administration has a sense of mission and purpose. All command overwhelming public support.

From tougher sentencing of violent criminals to a higher ­living wage and greater infrastructure spending outside London, from guaranteeing the NHS the resources it needs to cope with ever-increasing demand to constructing a points-based immigration system that will judge applicants by what they can offer instead of which country they are from, this is a balanced programme. 

Some opposition MPs continue to try to paint the Prime Minister as an extremist – Labour’s Angela Eagle ludicrously described him as a manifestation of the American “alt-Right”. That message will only play well with people lurking in a Left-wing echo chamber. The veteran shadow chancellor John McDonnell, head bowed in the Commons chamber, surely better understood the political reality that Boris Johnson has captured the real centre-ground of politics. 

Listening to Johnson delivering his patriotic and upbeat message will have come as a massive relief to millions of ­voters for so long fed a diet of fearfulness and failure. Key investors will like it too as, having decisively seen off the threat of Venezuelan-style socialism, the Prime Minister stressed the importance of wealth creators to Britain. Economists are already talking about the likelihood of a “Boris Boom” as the button is pushed on investment decisions postponed during the tug-of-war over Brexit.

In fewer than six months, Johnson has already won three stunning victories. First came his landslide in the Tory leadership contest despite a vicious campaign to block him. The second was reaching a new and better Withdrawal Agreement with Brussels despite almost every political commentator predicting this was impossible. Finally came a landslide general ­election victory too. 

Suddenly it all seems so simple for Boris and for Britain. We will leave the EU on January 31 – doing but not dying in the process. There is no reason why we cannot have a future relationship deal, embracing good trading arrangements, by December 31 next year either. 

We can turn the tide on violent crime with tougher sentences and recruiting more police officers. We can design a new immigration system to take the heat out of the issue with the national interest in mind. We can increase infrastructure spending to turbo-charge the Northern Powerhouse and the Midlands Engine too. We can make sure full-time workers earn a decent living and that the NHS is once more put on a sound financial footing. 

The years of fear – of being told we are not good enough to make it away from the stultifying embrace of Brussels – are coming to an end. The British people always kept the faith during the long media bombardment against Brexit. And now, at last, they have a leader who believes in them. 

It is time to be excited about the future of our country.

Don't be so hard on Stav. It is not over. Rumour has it that they have solicited the advice of Adam Schiff and he has given them the best advice they can get. His advice was to keep on saying that Brexit didn't happen and then appoint a Special Council to investigate it for two years. Also keep on saying that the Special Council is a real stand-up guy and a straight shooter who will expose the evidence of malfeasance that has been hiding in plain sight since 23 June 2016.

Unfortunately he has not yet told them what to do if they don't like the findings of the Special Council, though.

Well the election settled the question of if the UK will leave once and for all. The question now is in what manner do they leave, hard or soft?

They technically leave on the 31st of January but at that point enter the transition period which lasts till the end of 2020. During which point despite not being an EU member they will be following all EU rules. 

Its during the transition phase a trade deal needs to be done between the EU and the UK. Those with experience in trade negotiations are saying that concluding a trade deal in the that time frame is highly unlikely. Particularly as this is a very unique trade deal in that the two parties are not converging on trade rules but diverging away. The EU have said a trade deal can be done very quickly providing the UK agrees to all EU trade rules and recognizes the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice in settling trade disputes between them. Seems unlikely the UK will agree to that, but who knows they have already been the side that conceded the most during the withdrawal agreement negotiations.

So by the end of next year the UK will have to decide on leaving with a trade deal that leaves them very closely aligned to EU standards, rendering Brexit mostly pointless, leaving the EU with no deal which destroys the UK economy or delaying again. Get Brexit done indeed!

“ Seems unlikely the UK will agree to that, but who knows they have already been the side that conceded the most during the withdrawal agreement negotiations.”

It is a different kettle of fish they are dealing with this time around. Who was the first to blink since Boris took over. The general perception was “It is the Maybot’s deal or no deal and the negotiations are over and no further discussions will take place. Period” 

I keep asking myself this question: “If the EU is so much in control and unwavering and if the UK is so unimportant, then why the hell did they not say, when May invoked Article 50: ‘We have taken note. This is our terms and you can take it as is, or piss off.’ “? Why were they even prepared to listen to the UK and why did they cave when Boris demanded a renegotiation? 

Windpomp dear old Stav  is happy to sell out his country to rule from Brussels. He is very happy for the Irish to hand over their country to third world invaders. 

The plank is a complete sell out. 

Meanwhile the German economy continues to contract and I am hearing a lot of noise about Poland and Spain wanting to quit the EU. 

Who will be next. Face it the open borders globalist ruled EU is a failed project. 

@ceradyne

Well from a technical perspective the EU did indeed blink first by re-opening the withdrawal agreement, something they said they wouldn't do. 

But from a fact based reality point of view, the EU was only too happy to re-open as the changes made where entirely to its benefit. The backstop became the frontstop. 

I think you're asking the wrong question. The UK is not unimportant to the EU, it is absolutely most definitely within the EU's interest to secure a trade deal with the UK, but not any cost.

Why did they not say here are our terms take it or piss off?

Well they sort of did, but much more diplomatically. They have consistently stuck to their position throughout the length of the negotiation, it was the UK who was unwillingly to either agree a deal on those terms or leave without a deal. Remember in the last parliament, leavers held the majority over remainers, if the leavers had agreed on a leave stance, deal or no deal the UK would already been in the transition period or have left without a deal.

The EU showed great patience for several reasons. As I said an agreement is in the EU's interest, bottom line the UK leaving without a deal be economically damaging to the EU. Jobs and peoples are livelihoods are at stake, that's something that's worth being patient about. Secondly they did not want to be seen to be the ones who pushed the UK out. Thirdly there was a chance which is now gone that the UK might reconsider leaving the EU.

To say the EU caved to the UK is hysterical.  Its like this.

A man walks into a estate agent and says I like the look of this house and I want to buy it, how much?

The estate agent replies its going for €250,000 and that's not open for negotiation.

The man replies I'll give you €200,000, the estate says no. The man replies several more times I'll give you €200,000 for it. Each time the estate agent says no. 

After 4 or 5 attempts, the man replies, tell you what I'll give your €300,000 for it. The estate agent replies "no....wait what..eh..hang and let me ring the home owners from the back office". So he rings them and tells the home owners, I can get you €300,000 for the house..seriously this guys is willing to pay more..yeah I know but hes desperate. The home owners enthusiastically agree. The estate agent and man come to agreement that the house will be purchased for €300,000. 

The man leaves the estate agent thinking to himself, I really showed up that estate agent guy. He said he wouldn't re-negotiate but I sure showed him. 

That's basically the equivalent of what the UK did. The papers here in Ireland and Europe called it. Johnson boxed himself in, couldn't take the deal was on offer and the only other deal was mostly the same but slightly worse, but he took just to say it got a different deal and the Brexiteer lapped it up.

Tell me what way is Johnson's deal better than May's deal from the UK's perspective.

.

Beeno, the biggest winners of the EU was Ireland. Ireland was by far the poorest Western European country, with more than 30+ % unemployed on benefits. (A bit like Africa). 

Ireland had a GDP of something like 30% the other year, all the result of American corporations. 

The American corporations have used Ireland as a loophole to avoid paying corporate tax. However, with new EU regulations saying that Ireland can no longer so this,. it is looking like the end of tax evasion. 

Boris has plans to reduce corporate tax in the UK. It has already been reduced from 19% to 17%, and there is talk of pushing it down to 15%. So the UK may even up saying to Ireland thank you very much- we will have all the American corporations based themselves in the UK instead. 

The plan is that American companies will have to declare the revenue earnt in every country in Europe, and then pay a flat rate of 3% on revenue (not profit like what other companies do). In real terms that is more like 6% of the profit. Still low, but it is a step in the right direction to eventually getting these American corporates to pay the same rate as native countries in the EU.

The top 5 digital companies in the world (e.g. Google, Facebook, Apple) have higher total revenue than most countries. Their revenue is higher than all of Africa combined. 

So the Boris plan is for the American corporates to base more of their operating in the UK, and then Northern Ireland can leave the UK and become part of the Republic of Ireland

Beeno, the biggest winners of the EU was Ireland. Ireland was by far the poorest Western European country, with more than 30+ % unemployed on benefits. (A bit like Africa). 

Ireland had a GDP of something like 30% the other year, all the result of American corporations. 

The American corporations have used Ireland as a loophole to avoid paying corporate tax. However, with new EU regulations saying that Ireland can no longer so this,. it is looking like the end of tax evasion. 

Boris has plans to reduce corporate tax in the UK. It has already been reduced from 19% to 17%, and there is talk of pushing it down to 15%. So the UK may even up saying to Ireland thank you very much- we will have all the American corporations based themselves in the UK instead. 

The plan is that American companies will have to declare the revenue earnt in every country in Europe, and then pay a flat rate of 3% on revenue (not profit like what other companies do). In real terms that is more like 6% of the profit. Still low, but it is a step in the right direction to eventually getting these American corporates to pay the same rate as native countries in the EU.

The top 5 digital companies in the world (e.g. Google, Facebook, Apple) have higher total revenue than most countries. Their revenue is higher than all of Africa combined. 

So the Boris plan is for the American corporates to base more of their operating in the UK, and then Northern Ireland can leave the UK and become part of the Republic of Ireland

Beeno, the biggest winners of the EU was Ireland. Ireland was by far the poorest Western European country, with more than 30+ % unemployed on benefits. (A bit like Africa). 

Ireland had a GDP of something like 30% the other year, all the result of American corporations. 

The American corporations have used Ireland as a loophole to avoid paying corporate tax. However, with new EU regulations saying that Ireland can no longer so this,. it is looking like the end of tax evasion. 

Boris has plans to reduce corporate tax in the UK. It has already been reduced from 19% to 17%, and there is talk of pushing it down to 15%. So the UK may even up saying to Ireland thank you very much- we will have all the American corporations based themselves in the UK instead. 

The plan is that American companies will have to declare the revenue earnt in every country in Europe, and then pay a flat rate of 3% on revenue (not profit like what other companies do). In real terms that is more like 6% of the profit. Still low, but it is a step in the right direction to eventually getting these American corporates to pay the same rate as native countries in the EU.

The top 5 digital companies in the world (e.g. Google, Facebook, Apple) have higher total revenue than most countries. Their revenue is higher than all of Africa combined. 

So the Boris plan is for the American corporates to base more of their operating in the UK, and then Northern Ireland can leave the UK and become part of the Republic of Ireland

.

Beeno, the biggest winners of the EU was Ireland. Ireland was by far the poorest Western European country, with more than 30+ % unemployed on benefits. (A bit like Africa). 

Ireland had a GDP of something like 30% the other year, all the result of American corporations. 

The American corporations have used Ireland as a loophole to avoid paying corporate tax. However, with new EU regulations saying that Ireland can no longer so this,. it is looking like the end of tax evasion. 

Boris has plans to reduce corporate tax in the UK. It has already been reduced from 19% to 17%, and there is talk of pushing it down to 15%. So the UK may even up saying to Ireland thank you very much- we will have all the American corporations based themselves in the UK instead. 

The plan is that American companies will have to declare the revenue earnt in every country in Europe, and then pay a flat rate of 3% on revenue (not profit like what other companies do). In real terms that is more like 6% of the profit. Still low, but it is a step in the right direction to eventually getting these American corporates to pay the same rate as native countries in the EU.

The top 5 digital companies in the world (e.g. Google, Facebook, Apple) have higher total revenue than most countries. Their revenue is higher than all of Africa combined. 

So the Boris plan is for the American corporates to base more of their operating in the UK, and then Northern Ireland can leave the UK and become part of the Republic of Ireland

Beeno, the biggest winners of the EU was Ireland. Ireland was by far the poorest Western European country, with more than 30+ % unemployed on benefits. (A bit like Africa). 

Ireland had a GDP of something like 30% the other year, all the result of American corporations. 

The American corporations have used Ireland as a loophole to avoid paying corporate tax. However, with new EU regulations saying that Ireland can no longer so this,. it is looking like the end of tax evasion. 

Boris has plans to reduce corporate tax in the UK. It has already been reduced from 19% to 17%, and there is talk of pushing it down to 15%. So the UK may even up saying to Ireland thank you very much- we will have all the American corporations based themselves in the UK instead. 

The plan is that American companies will have to declare the revenue earnt in every country in Europe, and then pay a flat rate of 3% on revenue (not profit like what other companies do). In real terms that is more like 6% of the profit. Still low, but it is a step in the right direction to eventually getting these American corporates to pay the same rate as native countries in the EU.

The top 5 digital companies in the world (e.g. Google, Facebook, Apple) have higher total revenue than most countries. Their revenue is higher than all of Africa combined. 

So the Boris plan is for the American corporates to base more of their operating in the UK, and then Northern Ireland can leave the UK and become part of the Republic of Ireland

Beeno, the biggest winners of the EU was Ireland. Ireland was by far the poorest Western European country, with more than 30+ % unemployed on benefits, with massive recessions. 

However, since the rise of the American digital corporations, things picked up for Ireland. 

Ireland had a GDP of something like 30% the other year, all the result of American corporations tax. 

The American corporations have used Ireland as a loophole to avoid paying corporate tax. However, with new EU regulations saying that Ireland can no longer so this. it is looking like the end of tax evasion for Ireland. 

Boris has plans to reduce corporate tax in the UK. It has already been reduced from 19% to 17%, and there is talk of pushing it down to 15%. So the UK may even up saying to Ireland thank you very much- we will have all the American corporations based themselves in the UK instead. 

The plan is that American companies will have to declare the revenue earnt in every country in Europe, and then pay a flat rate of 3% on revenue (not profit like what other companies do). In real terms that is more like 6% of the profit. Still low, but it is a step in the right direction to eventually getting these American corporates to pay the same rate as native countries in the EU.

The top 5 digital companies in the world (e.g. Google, Facebook, Apple) have higher total revenue than most countries. Their revenue is higher than all of Africa combined. 

So the Boris plan is for the American corporates to base more of their operations in the UK, and then Northern Ireland can leave the UK and become part of the Republic of Ireland. 

@sharkbok

Its absolutely correct to say Ireland has been one of the biggest winners from the EU. We where the poorest of the 9 members of what was then the EEC. A third world inward looking isolated country, heavily dependent on agriculture and one could argue ruled by Rome.

Ireland is now a quite wealthy country and that's in large part thanks to the EU. It hasn't always been a harmonious relationship, there was a lot of ill will towards the EU after the bailout and austerity here a few years ago, but the EU's stanch support of Ireland during the Brexit negotiations has polling show very high levels of support for EU membership here currently I believe at around 90%. 

Irelands decision to allow American corporate to pay very little tax here was a major factor in its economic growth but far from the sole reason. We are English speaking, well educated country with a good standard of leaving with full access to the EU market, that makes us a very attractive place to invest in. Ireland as a brand is also very marketable, we are known as a nation that likes to have fun and gets on with everyone, we have no real historical baggage or bad relations with other countries.

We have had our own success stories Primark and Paddy Power, Ryanair is like 3rd or 4th biggest airline in the world and I believe the largest or 2nd largest by passenger numbers. We have numerous indigenous companies worth billions, 

https://www.thinkbusiness.ie/articles/the-10-biggest-irish-businesses/

Tourism here is really taking off and a movie/TV industry is starting to develop here as well.

The closing of tax loopholes will have an effect and we probably won't be posting consistent 5% GDP growth that we did for years, but the underlining investment and access to EU markets remain. The economic projections are good for the next few years assuming no hard Brexit, hard Brexit and we are screwed.

Even if Boris drops the UK corporate tax rate to 15% and Ireland does start charging the full amount of its corporate tax rate, Irelands rate is still lower and Ireland still has access to the 400 million plus EU market. That's why the opposite of what your saying is happening and companies are moving to Ireland out of the UK.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/financial-services/brexit-almost-30-financial-groups-move-operations-from-london-to-dublin-1.4023599

Boris doesn't do planning I'm afraid, he will just keep saying whatever it takes to keep himself in power.

Just another tax haven, but  with some terrific golf courses.

Stav,

The US corporations are about getting as much profit to their shareholders as possible. Sure, some Americans are descendants from Irish, but not as many that are from Britain. I would argue that London alone has more intellectual capital than 3-100 Irelands. 

Some of those points are subjective. (e.g. "we are known as a nation that likes to have fun and gets on with everyone, we have no real historical baggage or bad relations with other countries"). 

Irish people are always the first to say that everyone likes them. They are fine with small talk, but lesser so with more serious matters - where they can be very hot-headed and self-righteous. Also, countries in EU are aware that Ireland is stealing their tax money, and taking jobs which should be created in their own countries by the US corporations. 

However, I do feel that is beside the point- because the US companies have proven that their main goal is to monopolise global markets while paying as little tax to any country as possible. They do not really care if someone is happily drinking a pint of Guinness in Ireland, or in Luxemburg doing nothing. These US corporations are all about money, so if it means shifting to Luxemburg or the UK to pay less tax they will do this in a flash.

While Ireland does have successful companies, even these companies will be hit by changes to the EU tax legislation. Ireland has shafted the EU - the hand that fed it for so long by not honouring your own tax rates. 

The digital Tax planned by Europe will start at 3% of revenue to avoid shifting profits to tax havens like Ireland and Luxemburg. The UK has also drafted its own Digital Tax (Based on revenue, not profit to avoid companies declaring all their costs in the higher tax areas).  By declaring tax based on revenue and not profit, it will make it much easier to determine what is rightfully owed- and prevent Ireland or Luxemburg assisting with tax fraud. 

The only option would be for Ireland to have a digital sales tax less than 3% to undercut these countries, but I doubt it would be legal under new EU legislation

France has already started charging 3% of revenue to the American digital corporations because Ireland and a few other tax evaders blocked the EU digital tax, or at least made it slower to implement. (Not sure how this is possible with a minority vote).

The EU wants a sales report by EU country so that the correct amount of tax owed can be calculated- and paid to the country that paid for the respective goods/services. 

Even without Brexit, the writing has been on the wall for Ireland. The EU was always going to clamp down on a member state not playing by the rules, and allowing US companies to pay peanuts for tax. 

One of the main goals for the EU was to form an economic state that could compete with America. Ireland has thrown the EU under the bus for their own gains. However, it was not an IF, but a WHEN this would end. 

So Brexit might be irrelevant - as the EU had plans to make sure each state is paid their owed tax, and not Ireland pocketing the proceeds. Irelands only option might be to leave the EU so that they can continue to charge peanuts for the Corporate tax of other countries. However, by then EU laws will be in place which would probably prevent this.

Irelands gain has been at the expense of the EU, the very hand that fed it. 

@sharkbok

Absolutely the corporations are out to make as much money as possible for their shareholders that's the way the world works. But your so far off in your claim their more Americans of British descent than Irish.1.9 million Americans identify themselves as British American vs the almost 33 million Americans who call themselves Irish American. Feel free to look it up.

London is one of the worlds great city from a size (it alone has over double the population of Ireland) and cultural perspective and also one of the major financial capitals of the world, and it will remain so after Brexit, but in a noticeable diminished state. Why do you think London voted to remain?

I'm not sure what point your trying to make. Are you ascribing those attributes to me in an effort to undermine my arguments? Best way to undermine my arguments would be providing evidence backing up yours. Show me the economist who are predicting in more investment going into the UK when its outside the EU than it would of got as a member state?

Absolutely the American corps will go where they can make more money, aka out of the UK. Of course it will be still worth while investing in the UK market but the EU's much bigger market is considerable more attractive.

As for your final point, show me evidence to indicate indigenous Irish companies are not paying the full corporate tax rate or that these companies have been able to pay avoid paying tax in EU countries and have been able to pay it at home. While your at can you vouch for all the other member states that they are clean in regards their tax practices. By the way Ireland is now and has been for the last few years  net contributor to the EU. 

@sharkbok

You must of edited your post to add in the points on digital tax.

The EU digital tax is dead, Ireland, Denmark and Sweden blocked it. Which goes to make a mockery of the Brexiteer claim that the EU has too much control over member states. Unless the Brexiteers want to switch over to saying the EU has too little power now?

Basically when Ireland was exposed for a tax haven it took the initiative and started closing off some of the loop hole it was using like Inversions "double Irish", in order to curry favor and be able to claim we where dealing with the situation. So some of the loopholes are already gone and Irelands economy is still going strong. I'm sure in the mid to long term tax laws will be updated to stop countries from shifting where they have to pay tax and it will have an impact on Irelands economy but if you believe that's the end of Irish economic growth then I think your over egging the pudding. I'm not condone Ireland's action in this matter and saying it was acceptable because other nations did it, just saying you should hold everyone to account equally.

Your also overestimating Ireland's ability to throw the EU under the bus. We are not that big an economy. Yes we have probably earned tens of billions maybe even into the hundreds of billions at the EU's expense but that's small change compared to the EU's many trillions of Euro's economy. Aside from which Ireland is far from the only member state guilty of it. The UK is far from clean on the matter. 

As for Ireland leaving the EU. At 90% public support, it ain't likely to happen anytime soon. Of course things can change over time but if you asked people here right now, most would tell you we would be insane to leave.

Next member state out could be Poland. There is talk of them being kicked out due to politically interference in the Polish Judiciary system.

.

@Stavenger,

Not sure you have answered any of the points I raised. You seem to be muddying the water with your responses, or you have not understood what I said (E.g. that Digital Tax is paid on revenue, and not profit - so this would prevent Ireland being a tax haven). 

Nowhere did I say that indigenous Irish companies did not pay the Irish tax rate, I am saying that the American companies are not. They use Ireland as a tax haven to avoid paying EU countries tax. 

You generalised about Irish attributes, and I challenged this point. I don't know enough about you as a person to say if there are more or less prevalent with you, than the statistical average of Irish people as a whole. However everything is relative- if you are saying the Irish are nice people, it implies that other nations are lesser so. 

I think you are making too many assumptions about the UK, and the effects of Brexit. It is emotional bias because you know that Brexit can affect Ireland. However, like I said the EU is clamping down with digital tax- so even without Brexit - these US companies might spread their operations across the EU split by country. This will create jobs in all of the EU countries, and ensure they collect their own tax.  So this will be positive for the rest of the EU, and not UK or Ireland. 

What do you mean Net contributor to the EU? 

No country is entirely 100% perfect with tax, however, that does not entitle Ireland to be a tax haven. You can wrestle with the ethical side, however, the digital tax in the EU will end Ireland being a tax haven. So the EU countries are going to start getting paid their sales tax from US companies, instead of Ireland taking this.

Well I had Irish subsidiaries reporting to me. Is that extensive? Who knows. But I played Ballybunion and Waterville and I have extensive experience of the rough at both courses.

Stav

First of all I would not like to see that Europe ended up in the same mess as happened in the US, in the case of the US there are two contending operations causing havoc in governance.   Even DP Senator Schumer at one stage referred to the situation,  

On he one side there is the elected Government - on the pother side the bureaucracy and especially the FBI and CIA.    The latter two institutions takes no orders from anybody.    They like the way they operate above the law and if anybody take action that the top brass do not like they find something that they could use against any politician they dislike.  In the main the past three years showed what they are capable of in the USA.   They would lie and .leak twisted info to embarrass in this case Trump.   Trump require some order - not shenanigans - and they fight him on every ground imaginable.

In the US they call it the Washington  swamp The problem is that when such a monster is created it is very difficult to contain.   In the case of the EU there are about 32 000 employees and they could potentially be very dangerous,   Basically they fall under the EU Commission. They churn out legislation  which EU members must implement.   That means that the bureaucracy without any control by the individual countries can be forced to apply legislation  approve legislation that they mist implement.   

That has all the potential for a vey dangerous situation to develop - a situation  can easily get out of control like happened  in the USA,    European Court in iotself can also be a very dangerous institution.               

    .         

@mozart

Well everyone is of course entitled to an opinion. But to dismiss it as just another tax haven I would have assumed you have spent some time here and in other so called tax havens to compare them and that you have concluded these countries have nothing else too offer and are therefore not worth living in other than for a weekend of golf.

I acquiesce to your knowledge of Irish golf courses, I don't play myself

We all have opinions and our personal bias, but overall I think Ireland is a good country to live in, not perfect and we could do better in many area's but we have done alright for ourselves.

https://www.irishpost.com/news/ireland-ranks-among-best-countries-world-quality-life-according-un-report-175092

@Stavager, Ireland has no doubt improved, but I suppose my point is that it has been off the back of other EU countries. Ireland would probably be less "great" to live before the American companies based their tax operations in Ireland. 

Something worth noting is that Ireland's personal tax is much higher than in many places in the world. I believe income tax can be as high as 44%. From what I have heard, some people are on 22% income tax bracket employment contract and get a raise, and suddenly get thrown into the 44% tax bracket- and end up earning a lower salary. 

So less corporate tax means personal income tax has to be higher. This raises questions about where does this corporate tax all go. Is there a clear money trail of how much is earnt by the government, and what it is spent on. 

So, sure the short term issues of job creation have been solved, but it is not pushing the capital back into the market by having such a high rate of personal income tax. It is a high rate of employees to indigenous companies

If the US corporations leave tomorrow when EU digital sales tax comes into effect, the jobs will be gone. The select crew that have pocketed the sales tax of years gone, will be well off- but not everyone else. 

Brexit will affect Irish indigenous exports to the UK, but the real carrot is the tax revenue from US internationals. The Irish will have to play by EU laws to remain a member. If not a member, the EU will block Ireland from collecting tax from the EU

Just teasing Stavanger. I had a great time in Ireland....for you guys staying in Europe as the English speaking alternative inside Europe may work out well. Just a bit worried about all the members on life support, like the Goimans!

“ Posted by: sharkbok (10274 posts)

And then there is this:

Breaking News:Spain follows Poland in shock threat to quit EU

Spain has joined Poland in becoming the second country this week to claim it could ditch the EU, amid growing fury at the power that Brussels holds over member-states. Spain’s third biggest party Vox is under huge pressure to back the Spanish version of the Brexit referendum, following growing fury at an ECJ ruling this week. Vox’s own party president lambasted the EU, claiming when the ECJ overruled Spanish courts, it had humiliated the country and its sovereignty. 

@Ceradynce, 

When I was referring to the rate of personal income tax vs corporation tax, it was in the context of Ireland. The US Corporates are paying Ireland an undisclosed amount of corporate tax- for example, 1%.  (This is instead of paying the EU countries their respective corporate tax rate %. Ireland (and Luxemburg) have made a mockery of the EU, which was designed to compete with the USA. 

I agree with reducing corporate tax rates for all companies, but whatever the rate is, it should be the same per cent paid by all companies. Other countries should not be able to undercut the tax rates of other EU members. or claim any of the sales made in another EU country. 

I have to pay corporate tax, that is what annoys me most about the Ireland situation. If the UK taxed the US corporates more, I believe that corporation tax could be reduced more. So the Irish are stealing money directly out of my pocket. 

So I want UK Corporate tax to be lower, but I want the US companies to be paying their own fair share of the Corporate tax for their sales/profits in the UK. At this stage, the only way to get tax from these companies is to tax their revenue (rather than profits) - as they will just lie about their profits. 

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Boris Johnson has reduced tax rates from 19%, to 17%. He is talking about reducing this to 15% next year, which would be fantastic. 

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Have you heard of the digital sales tax? It is estimated that the revenue of the big 4 US tech companies is higher than the whole of the UK economy. Also more than the whole of the African continent. 

This is the biggest risk to Ireland, not Brexit. 

When this is implemented across Europe, Ireland will no longer be able to be used as a tax evasion loophole. (Otherwise, the US companies will be taxed twice!! ) 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/introduction-of-the-new-digital-services-tax/introduction-of-the-new-digital-services-tax

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https://www.reuters.com/article/britain-tax-digital/uk-refines-digital-sales-tax-as-more-countries-adopt-levy-idUSL8N24C47N

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_rates

Tax rates by countries

Here Ireland rank as number 1 tax haven country in the world.   

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_haven

@ SB.

"When I was referring to the rate of personal income tax vs corporation tax, it was in the context of Ireland."

Point taken. That does change things. 

"So I want UK Corporate tax to be lower, but I want the US companies to be paying their own fair share of the Corporate tax for their sales/profits in the UK."

Yeah, now this is where things get dodgy because of all kinds of international trade laws and shyte, which makes the heads of "the man in the street" spin. I also do not always understand it when I see people trying to explain it. I don't even think that anybody, least of all the politicians, really know how to handle it. Fact is that the big international corporates and in particular the lawyers and CFOs of the tech companies run rings around the lawmakers. Maybe the digital sales tax is not such a crap idea. They earn too much for doing bugger all in any case, IMO. They have a couple of nerds punching their keyboards while the accountants crunches the numbers and count the money rolling in 24/7.

@sharkbok

I don't think I'm the one muddying the waters, you said EU tax legislation will hit Irish companies as well, therefore your implying they also have not being paying the proper tax here.  I've heard nor seen any evidence of that.

From reading your posts you give the impression that all Ireland has to offer is being a tax haven and the country will struggle to survive if the tax loop holes are closed. While I acknowledge its played its part in Ireland's economic growth, I was pointing out that country has more to offer than just that.  

As for making assumptions about the UK, what I'm saying is based on reality and predictions. Hundreds of financial companies have already left the UK to move into the EU due to Brexit.  All the economic forecasts predict less investment in the UK once it leaves the EU. Nothing about assumptions this is what the experts in economics are saying and reality on the ground. If the US companies do spread across the EU more evenly due to changes in tax law, its got nothing to do with Brexit.

Ireland for the last years has being pay more to the EU in membership fees than its been getting back from the EU in terms of aid and infrastructure investment. Though all contributor member states more than make this up via tariff free trade to Europe.  I've heard Brexiteers say Ireland's  issue with the UK leaving is that Ireland is a net receiver of EU money and it doesn't want to see a reduction in this aid when the UK no longer contributes to the EU. Again its something that's said out of ignorance and not based on reality.

Ireland was not a great place to live before the mid to late 80's at which point the economy took off and the country started becoming a lot more liberal and the church lost its power over society here. American corporations played a significant role in Irelands success but as I said already, there is many other factors, and it wasn't all about tax.

Tax is quite high here. 20% on the first €35,300 - €43,550 you earn depending on whether your single, married or have kids and anything above that the rate is 40%. Perhaps those tax rates would be lower if corporate tax was payed in full but maybe not. Perhaps the trade off of not having the corporations here in the first place would be too much. Hard to say.

Are the US corporations leaving tomorrow. Who knows what the future might bring but for now I'm not concerned. We will have to wait and see but I'm not sure what any of this has to do with Brexit.

@ceradyne

The classic Brexiteer argument of they need us more than we need them. Of course no country is particularly happy to have to pay more in membership fees as a result of the UK leaving, but that's the reality and each country will just have to deal with it because membership is worth far more in return than the membership fee. Brexiteers keep harping on about the membership fee (you never hear the Germans or French who pay more going on about it)and the UK propping up the EU and going on about saving 9 billion in membership fees, but again all the economic experts say that that the UK makes in tariff free trade with the EU is worth somewhere between 800% to 2500% more than the membership fee. For all contributor nations to the EU budget, they all more than make than money up via tariff free trade with other EU countries.

For Ireland yes the UK leaving means we will have to pay more. But the major fear for Ireland has always been a no deal Brexit. Which means a border with the North which disrupts north south trade and potentially destabilizes the peace process. A hard border with the UK means disruption with trade with them our biggest trade partner and that if we want to trade into the rest of the EU via the UK we get a doubly whammy, Irish trucks would get hit with checks going into the UK and then again when leaving the UK into France or the Netherlands an absolute disaster for trade in terms of time and cost. We don't have the freight shipping to go around the UK and even if we did its still too slow trading via freight ship directly with the EU. The membership fee hike is peanuts compared to those issues.

Also the EU budget is not staying the same or reducing, its already going up. Again no country wants to pay more, but they all know membership is worth far than the increased fee.

Say want you want about Leo, he ain't that popular here for domestic reasons but it took him just 90 minutes alone time with Boris Johnson to make Johnson cave and accept a worse deal than May's. Heaven help Johnson and the UK when he has to go up against the leaders of the big boy countries and not small fry like Ireland .

@Stav, the Irish appear to believe that it is legal and morally acceptable to tax profits made in other EU countries, and even across the world. 

So instead of Google paying a country like France 15% Corporate Tax, Google will pay Ireland 1% corporate tax on sales earnings within France. It is absolutely absurd. So France loses tax money, and it also loses jobs. Instead French people are working out of Dublin call centres to service French people in France. 

One of the main reasons the UK might be leaving the EU is because of how Ireland has been shafted everyone in the EU. America has played the EU for fools by using Ireland as a means to pay less tax. 

As you say Ireland does have some of its own industry like Ryan Air and Paddy Power etc. However, because of its dodgy under the table deal with multi-national companies, it is not clear how much of the GDP contribution is made from being a tax haven. My guess is that more than 50% of the Irish GDP is made up of skimming tax profits from other EU member states.

I do think that Digital Sales Tax across the EU is a bigger risk to Ireland than Brexit. This could cut the Irish economy in half overnight. 

There is another factor that Britain is, of course, a first language English speaking country. Once Google and co have to pay Digital sales tax in the UK and the other EU countries, what is to stop the American companies moving to the UK. Staying in Ireland could mean being double taxed. The UK would be outside of the EU jurisdiction, so they could tax whatever they want. Unlike Ireland who will probably be forced to apply the Digital Sales tax on revenue, instead of profit. 

Even if Ireland get away with refusing to charge digital sales tax, and instead continue to tax the profits of other EU states - these EU states are going to be charging Google and Co their own digital tax, or a blanket EU digital tax based on sales by country - so Ireland would suddenly mean double tax- and not a tax saving at all. 

I genuinely feel that Ireland's advantage has been mostly undercutting tax rates. London alone has much more human resources for US companies. So without the US companies being able to dodge tax using Ireland, many could move to the UK- or just have larger operations in each EU country. 

It may even be cheaper to pay the UK digital sales tax, than what the other European countries come up. UK will also be outside the EU jurisdiction - so until there is a global standard for sales tax, the UK may be cheaper. However whatever way the cookie crumbles, if digital sales tax comes into effect across the EU, the days of the Irish skimming other member states profits are over...

@sharkbok

Whatever the scale and morales of the Irish tax system is, Brexit has absolutely nothing to do with it. Your the only person I know thats tried to link them. The primary reasons for Brexit are immigration, membership cost and the question of whether the EU has too much control over UK law. The Irish tax system never entered the debate.

I'm not defending Irelands tax regime (i've not benefitted from it either) but you seem to overly fixated on it in the Brexit context. 

I have mixed feelings about the House of Lords but that is another argument for another day. In short it boils down to the fact that most of them are just figure heads with no value to add at all. It is however true that a hell of a lot of them have vast amounts of political experience. 

Listen carefully to this recent speech by Lord Norman Lamont. In the clip and in the title of the clip he is referred to as Sit Norman Lamont but he is indeed a Lord. 

You oaks are wasting your time. What you will see is the collapse of the EU. It's struggling economically AND countries not confined to Poland and Hungry now know that the EU IS HELL BENT ON WANTING TO DESTRY NATIONAL SOVEREIGNTY. 

The voters are on to the globalist game of open borders and multiculturalism. The people's of Europe are going to kick these globalist bas#ards out in due course. 

According to scripture, 10 kings of the north will partake in the final war that destroys Israel and Jerusalem.

In other words, I believe the EU will take a bit of a beating with members leaving left and right but it will remain an entity of considerable military power.