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FORUM / MIKES GRIPES /  Snow on the ground on April 15

Snow on the ground on April 15

Started by Mozart144 REPLIES2,403 VIEWS· 15 Apr 2020, 17:33
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MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
18 Apr 2020, 19:07
#81
18 Apr 2020, 19:07#81

The Stavster is another fake....he can google results but he has no idea how they are derived. But he just knows, even though almost nothing the modelers have predicted has  been conservative....they always predicted more.....forecasts always on one side of actual observations are a sure sign of bias if not incompetence.


And the ultimate humiliation, he has to make common cause with Rooi Peeper, the guy who spies on members’ kids.

’If your directing that  at me’. The poor sap says but he still hasn’t realized it’s ‘you’re’, even after I tried to help him.

What a drubbing!

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
18 Apr 2020, 21:28
#82
18 Apr 2020, 21:28#82

Regardless of the evidence they can't admit to being wrong, because its one thing to be wrong which some might be able to handle, but its another to realize that if they were wrong then their manners and actions have been over a long period of time been proven to be completely unjustified.

Stav how about admitting the EU is a failed project . Your blindness and refusal to face facts makes your comments very appropriate for YOU to consider.

So the models are up the pole simply because they don't know what they are doing or because the globalist funding these fakes have an agenda and are dictating what result they want.

Thankfully time has made such fools of these Climate hoaxers they have nowhere to go!

ST
Stavanger1Pro4,532 posts
18 Apr 2020, 21:49
#83
18 Apr 2020, 21:49#83

Well at least I can use actually use google, that seems completely beyond you. You just rehash long debunked theories and junk science then stick your hands in you're ears and shout lalalala I can't hear you.

No I don't just know, I go and fact check this stuff, something you also seem incapable of doing.

As for your claim that nothing the modelers predicted has proven to be conservative and that they always predict more, you're once again demonstrably wrong. I already posted this above

https://www.carbonbrief.org/analysis-how-well-have-climate-models-projected-global-warming

Of the the 8 models carbonbrief.org looked at 3 of the predictions where conservative. Less than 5 minutes of searching online proves that, and you talk about the researchers compiling these models as being biased or incompetent? Again going back to the first article you posted up, the author of the paper from which paper the graph came from Jianbin Huang has published other papers, one of which showed an under-estimation of warming on the Eurasian landmass.

Grammer Nazi's seem to be alive and well in 2020. My bad grammar reflects less badly on me as a person than the completely arrogant drivel you've been sprouting in this thread does on you. But nice try using it as a deflection tactic to hide from the fact you're not actually able to properly debate me.






BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
18 Apr 2020, 22:05
#84
18 Apr 2020, 22:05#84

Hey young Stav how do you like Greta. Seems to be a very stable and sensible lass? You two are made for one another!

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
19 Apr 2020, 02:18
#85
19 Apr 2020, 02:18#85
It’s only ‘junk’ science because it is counter to the beliefs of the consensus....most of whom have have a stake in global warming. For an increase of 1/1000 in the greenhouse gasses  to doom mankind is sufficiently implausible to need solid justification and certainly to be challenged.
As for the models....the Russian models work:

But one of the models actually works. According to University of Alabama’s John Christy and his colleagues, only the Russian model, designated INM-CM4, gets things right. So why not weight heavily on the model that is working? Perhaps because it has less global warming in it than all the other U.N. models?

Its successor, INM-CM5, is so good that it is the only one that diagnoses the “pause” in warming from 2002 to 2014. That the “pause” was real is obvious in the global surface temperature record that the that the IPCC relies upon most heavily, from the Climate Research Unit at the University of East Anglia.

.........

Modeling near term future temperatures is not exactly the most difficult challenge. The variable is very stable and trending up at a slow rate. Showing the model replicates past climate behavior has a fatal problem as discussed by this participant on Skeptical Science the pro climate change discussion board:


‘ No, we are saying that Hanson's model from 1988 does not fit the present, even his conservative projections are significantly high of actual observation at this point. (High relative to the ground based measurements and wildly high compared to satellite and balloon measurements to be more specific) If a model can't take past conditions and produce results that fit current reality it would be obviously useless. However since modelers are not simpletons that isn't the problem that was being discussed! The problem is just because current models have been changed so they can somewhat be used to fit past observations that doesn't mean those changes were the correct changes, therefore it doesn't mean that they are making correct predictions. The models still contain assumptions for various parameters that have not or perhaps can not presently be varified. Freeman Dyson is correct here, Models are improving but they have a long way to go before they are better than educated guesses. You should read Dyson's entire statement this is a bit out of context.’
......


DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
19 Apr 2020, 03:16
#86
19 Apr 2020, 03:16#86

"@DbDraad

"Regardless of the evidence they can't admit to being wrong"

If your directing that at me, can you clarify what I got wrong?"

It wasn't directed at you...I quoted Plum and I was under the impression he was talking to Shark....

Having said that.

You reduce the graphs I posted as "climate deniers" propaganda...and imply that it's slanted data or out of context. I have made no comment about the data, yet you saw it fit to contextualize my intent for me.

My reasons for posting the graphs is simple...like I have said before. The world climate is in a perpetual state of fluctuation. From the historical  data, it is clear that we are close to the crest of the temperature curve. Even if we take human interference out of the equation, we are bound for a further bit of an increase anyway...before an inevitable steady decline in temperature for a bunch of centuries that would be catastrophic for the futere of human civilization. 

We are in uncharted territory, yet large portions of the historical data is being ignored in order to beat the "doom drum". If we can prevent the "Gobal Warming Doom" ....what are we going to do to prevent the following Ice Age, or is history miraculously not going to follow the same coarse this time around? We were bound for a serious global cool down in the near future.  Human influence might have postponed that a bit. Who knows, our influence on greenhouse gasses might even be a good thing...environmental blasphemy, I know, but how are we going to prevent the following Great Cooldown? 

Like I have said before. I am not a denier, I'm just saying that this is much more sophisticated than "climatr scientists " lead on...and there is a clear agenda in the way research is publicized and presented...it would be nice if they could include imput from physicists and put the long term historical data in context with their models. Including only a couple of centuries in the models is a deliberate misrepresentation of the facts...to what end? 

I have not once downplayed the seriousness of the problem. I am very concerned about the environment and the sustainability of human life on Earth, but I seriously question the way in wich "climate science" is being conducted and especially the way it's being politicized....I smell a rat.

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
19 Apr 2020, 06:45
#87
19 Apr 2020, 06:45#87

And here from the Wall Street Journal in June 2018 is a rather devastating debunking of James Hansen the chief prophet of Climate Change. Nope these guys have not got things right....they just keep adjusting:


James E. Hansen wiped sweat from his brow. Outside it was a record-high 98 degrees on June 23, 1988, as the NASA scientist testified before the Senate Committee on Energy and Natural Resources during a prolonged heat wave, which he decided to cast as a climate event of cosmic significance. He expressed to the senators his “high degree of confidence” in “a cause-and-effect relationship between the greenhouse effect and observed warming.”

With that testimony and an accompanying paper in the Journal of Geophysical Research, Mr. Hansen lit the bonfire of the greenhouse vanities, igniting a world-wide debate that continues today about the energy structure of the entire planet. President Obama’s environmental policies were predicated on similar models of rapid, high-cost warming. But the 30th anniversary of Mr. Hansen’s predictions affords an opportunity to see how well his forecasts have done—and to reconsider environmental policy accordingly. 

Mr. Hansen’s testimony described three possible scenarios for the future of carbon dioxide emissions. He called Scenario A “business as usual,” as it maintained the accelerating emissions growth typical of the 1970s and ’80s. This scenario predicted the earth would warm 1 degree Celsius by 2018. Scenario B set emissions lower, rising at the same rate today as in 1988. Mr. Hansen called this outcome the “most plausible,” and predicted it would lead to about 0.7 degree of warming by this year. He added a final projection, Scenario C, which he deemed highly unlikely: constant emissions beginning in 2000. In that forecast, temperatures would rise a few tenths of a degree before flatlining after 2000.

Thirty years of data have been collected since Mr. Hansen outlined his scenarios—enough to determine which was closest to reality. And the winner is Scenario C. Global surface temperature has not increased significantly since 2000, discounting the larger-than-usual El Niño of 2015-16. Assessed by Mr. Hansen’s model, surface temperatures are behaving as if we had capped 18 years ago the carbon-dioxide emissions responsible for the enhanced greenhouse effect. But we didn’t. And it isn’t just Mr. Hansen who got it wrong. Models devised by the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change have, on average, predicted about twice as much warming as has been observed since global satellite temperature monitoring began 40 years ago.

James Hansen testifies before a Senate Transportation subcommittee in Washington, D.C., May 8, 1989.PHOTO: DENNIS COOK/ASSOCIATED PRESS

What about Mr. Hansen’s other claims? Outside the warming models, his only explicit claim in the testimony was that the late ’80s and ’90s would see “greater than average warming in the southeast U.S. and the Midwest.” No such spike has been measured in these regions.

As observed temperatures diverged over the years from his predictions, Mr. Hansen doubled down. In a 2007 case on auto emissions, he stated in his deposition that most of Greenland’s ice would soon melt, raising sea levels 23 feet over the course of 100 years. Subsequent research published in Nature magazine on the history of Greenland’s ice cap demonstrated this to be impossible. Much of Greenland’s surface melts every summer, meaning rapid melting might reasonably be expected to occur in a dramatically warming world. But not in the one we live in. The Nature study found only modest ice loss after 6,000 years of much warmer temperatures than human activity could ever sustain.

Several more of Mr. Hansen’s predictions can now be judged by history. Have hurricanes gotten stronger, as Mr. Hansen predicted in a 2016 study? No. Satellite data from 1970 onward shows no evidence of this in relation to global surface temperature. Have storms caused increasing amounts of damage in the U.S.? Data from the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration show no such increase in damage, measured as a percentage of gross domestic product. How about stronger tornadoes? The opposite may be true, as NOAA data offers some evidence of a decline. The list of what didn’t happen is long and tedious.


MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
19 Apr 2020, 06:54
#88
19 Apr 2020, 06:54#88

Stav Anger  if this were a golf match I’d be offering you  2 shots on each nine....but don’t give up this is more fun than a barrel of monkeys.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
19 Apr 2020, 09:00
#89
19 Apr 2020, 09:00#89

Mozart

One of my major problems with "climate change" is that it became a political tool used by left wing politicians to get votes - not a scientific based phenomenon  requiring scientific research on a comprehensive basis,

Let me give you a practical example.   I referred to the Little Ice Age that effected Greenland about 700 years ago and let to abandoning of settlements.  Did that Little Ice Age effect other parts of the world as well, what was the impact of that Little Ice Age even up  to this day in Greenland and elsewhere?  Is there scientific proof of other "Little Ice Age cases elsewhere?  Can "Little Ice Ages"  happen again? 

I am no scientist bu t certainly have the right to ask questions on any issue effecting our daily lives.          

      

ST
Stavanger1Pro4,532 posts
19 Apr 2020, 12:12
#90
19 Apr 2020, 12:12#90

@mozart

It’s only ‘junk’ science because it is counter to the beliefs of the consensus....most of whom have have a stake in global warming. For an increase of 1/1000 in the greenhouse gasses  to doom mankind is sufficiently implausible to need solid justification and certainly to be challenged.

The consensus has a stake in global warming?. Anything that backs up that grandiose claim?

Once again with the long ago easily debunked argument that because something is small it can't have any significant effect. Repeating something over and over does not make it true.

Then you make a knowingly dishonest exaggeration of what proponents of climate change are saying. None of the climate scientists who are proponents of climate change say it will "doom mankind", they are saying nothing of the sort but they are saying it will have serious consequences

"As for the models....the Russian models work:

But one of the models actually works. According to University of Alabama’s John Christy and his colleagues, only the Russian model, designated INM-CM4, gets things right. So why not weight heavily on the model that is working? Perhaps because it has less global warming in it than all the other U.N. models?

Its successor, INM-CM5, is so good that it is the only one that diagnoses the “pause” in warming from 2002 to 2014. That the “pause” was real is obvious in the global surface temperature record that the that the IPCC relies upon most heavily, from the Climate Research Unit at the University of East Anglia."

Its interesting that you claim that global warming proponents have a stake in it but doubt bother to investigate the other side of that argument. This paragraph you quoted, is one again from Patrick Michael, who you also quoted in an earlier post and who is the author of the WSJ article in your second last post. This is the same Patrick Michael's who works at the Cato Institute a think tank funded the Koch brothers arguably the primary sponsors of climate change doubt in America.  The same Patrick Michael's who has admitted 40% of his salary comes from the fossil fuel industry. The same Patrick Michal who has a track record of deleting data that doesn't support his arguments.

https://skepticalscience.com/patrick-michaels-serial-deleter-of-inconvenient-data.html

As for the Russian models themselves

Well a 2014 paper from the University of Leeds examined 38 climate models and found INM-CM4 to be the least accurate of the 38.


As for NM-CM5 model, the following issues have been pointed out about that model.

"The model is able to reproduce the correct behavior of global mean temperature in 1980–2014 despite incorrect phases of the Atlantic Multidecadal Oscillation and Pacific Decadal Oscillation indices in the majority of experiments. The Arctic sea ice loss in recent decades is reasonably close to the observations in just one model run; the model underestimates Arctic sea ice loss by a factor of 2.5."

Who pointed that out?...well it was actually the modelers themselves in the abstract of their paper, which once again you obviously didn't read. Rather honest of them to admit that their model accurately predicts global temperature trends yet some of the data they used in their modeling was wrong.

Now I'm not saying both of those models are completely wrong, far from it, they partially or mostly accurate, but to claim they are the only accurate models is a long way from the truth. Your just repeating the claim without fact checking, because its suits you're agenda.

Now moving on to the Patrick Michael's blundered hack job WSJ article and the criticisms of Hansen's models, I'll just link to the guardian article which covers Michael's dishonest distortions of Hansen's work.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/climate-consensus-97-per-cent/2018/jun/25/30-years-later-deniers-are-still-lying-about-hansens-amazing-global-warming-prediction

"Stav Anger  if this were a golf match I’d be offering you  2 shots on each nine....but don’t give up this is more fun than a barrel of monkeys"

I can play this silly little game too. If this was a boxing match, you would be Apollo Creed and I'd be Ivan Drago, Rocky really needs to throw in that towel!



.



RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
19 Apr 2020, 12:34
#91
19 Apr 2020, 12:34#91

See what I mean about Moffie, Stav?

He posts the biggest load of biased, ignorant and unsubstantiated drivel and then at the end he says "I'm winning" and sticks out his tongue.

It's been his modus operandi for many years now and the really sad part is that there are posters dumb and impressionable enough to applaud him and to suck up to him in the most obsequious and fawning manner. I call them his Servile Gimps and they include Omlet (Augenoffner), the Squeaky Toy (DbDraad) and Baboon-ou.

As for Moffie's views on climate change, check out this thread from some years ago where he was quoting a pair of clowns called Cliff Harris and Randy Mann . . . and then check out the link I put up which exposes these two charlatans as the frauds they are. These are the people Moffie gets his info from.

LMAO!

Edit: Oh and as for Moffie correcting your spelling or your grammar, this is the guy who gave us words like "teath", ''kanipshin" (he meant conniption), "phased" (instead of fazed), "viscous" instead of vicious and "neanderthall"; who boasted that he drives a "McClarrin" and who uttered the immortal phrase: "I don't need a spellcheck, stipid!"

SH
sharkbokCaptain23,209 posts
19 Apr 2020, 14:02
#92
19 Apr 2020, 14:02#92

If climate change deniers are wrong = It could seriously impact future generations along with other life on earth. 
If climate change believers are wrong = Little to no effect on future generations other than more sources of energy- as the result of more green R&D. 
Better to be overcautious than careless. 
Climate change deniers often have links to oil companies themselves, or people within the religious organisation . The church then pushes a conspiracy theory to incite xenophobic unity - that climate change believers are using climate change to establish globalism..  The globalists are are of course in league with the Devil, Islam fanatics, and anything that happy clappies can spell backwards to find hidden cryptic clues. 
Climate change believers do not have much of a personal motive unless they own shares in a green technology company. 

The question is why is that climate change deniers happen to all be religious? Not that all religious are climate change deniers, they just seem to make up all of the climate change deniers. 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Remember this thread?  - Dolph Lundgren and the environment. Also known as He-Man o r  Drago from Rockyhttps://www.ruckersforum.com/forum/sport/warmers---another-pesky-data-point/12928

However, this threads has some really good charts that show changes in the environment. 
https://www.ruckersforum.com/forum/sport/warmers---another-pesky-data-point/12928
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
19 Apr 2020, 15:47
#93
19 Apr 2020, 15:47#93

I do not fall in either category and believe that scientists should get their act together and stay oput of politics,   Both sides of the argument has either political or commercial links that influence their decisions.   There are many unanswered issues that deserve investigation anyway,

As to the ideas of some extremists to destroy the economy and get in a socialist hegemony world wide - like the case is with Democratic Socialists in the USA using the climate change argument it is to my mind a crazy abuse of the situation.   Unfortunately there are similar tendencies in many other countries as well.  

So the issue should return to be dealt with on a scientific basis and the use of it to settle political differen ces should stop.              

PL
PlumCaptain21,007 posts
19 Apr 2020, 15:54
#94
19 Apr 2020, 15:54#94


"The globalists are are of course in league with the Devil, Islam fanatics, and anything that happy clappies can spell backwards to find hidden cryptic clues."

Allow me to demonstrate...

Shark backwards is...

K R A...

Now assign numerical values to the final two letters...

H = 8

S = 19

If we assign one point to each remaining letter we have 2. 

H / 2 = 4

S / 2 = 9.5

Therefore 4 + 9.5 + 2.5(the amount brain cells Shark has) we arrive at 16.

The 16th letter of the alphabet is P.

Therefore, we conclude that Shark is...wait for it...

K R A P

SH
sharkbokCaptain23,209 posts
19 Apr 2020, 16:02
#95
19 Apr 2020, 16:02#95
Plum

Rugby Legend

5543 posts

Apr 19, 2020, 15:54


Therefore, we conclude that Shark is...wait for it...

K R A P

 0 0 Likes

-----------
Crap is with a C not a K. Now your "conspiracy model" is disproven. 

After all of that  satanical mathematical model - All you have is - "Me cant spell 'Crap'.  Ha, Ha  Perfect example of a happie clappy bending stats to try suit fit into their own misinterpretation of reality. 

PL
PlumCaptain21,007 posts
19 Apr 2020, 16:11
#96
19 Apr 2020, 16:11#96

Oh, you didn't know that krap with a K  describes the truly repugnant type of cra p with a C?

No worries Shark, I live to give.

SH
sharkbokCaptain23,209 posts
19 Apr 2020, 16:20
#97
19 Apr 2020, 16:20#97

No I did not, and apparently no one else does either. 

Type krap into Google. 

Then type crap into Google.

To make it easier for you, I have created hyperlinks of the Google Searches for each word. 

KRAP

CRAP


---- ------------ -----------

Some examples below, but feel free to scroll through lots of pages.

-------------- -------------

Search Results

Web results


krap - Wiktionary

en.wiktionary.org › wiki › krap
VerbEdit. krap (present krap, present participle krappende, past participle gekrap). to scratch; to scrape; to write quickly, sloppily and ...?Afrikaans · ?Albanian · ?Dutch · ?Icelandic

Krap - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Krap
The krap (Thai: ????, pronounced [kràp]) is a Southeast Asian musical instrument used in Cambodia and Thai for percussion.?Thailand · ?Cambodia

krap - Urban Dictionary

www.urbandictionary.com › define › term=krap
That girl over there is a Krap, her father is japanese and her mother is korean. ... Krap merely breaks down to Kill R#pe And Pwn a motto which krap players live ...
------------Your little conspiracy mathematical equation was useless, but it was prejudiced by being a happy clappy. And here concludes todays training.  
PL
PlumCaptain21,007 posts
19 Apr 2020, 16:56
#98
19 Apr 2020, 16:56#98

Do you get all your information from the internet, krapper?

Surely Wikipedia is not your Oracle. 

Everyone knows what Krap with a caps K is.

Gosh, live under a rock much?

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
19 Apr 2020, 17:00
#99
19 Apr 2020, 17:00#99

Here you have another classic:


n the absence of policies, global warming is expected to reach 4.1°C – 4.8°C above pre-industrial by the end of the century. The emissions that drive this warming are often called Baseline scenarios (‘Baselines’ in the above figure) and are taken from the IPCC AR5 Working Group III. Current policies presently in place around the world are projected to reduce baseline emissions and result in about 3.0°C1 warming above pre-industrial levels. The unconditional pledges and targets that governments have made, including NDCs2 as of December 2019, would limit warming to about 2.8°C3 above pre-industrial levels, or in probabilistic terms, likely (66% or greater chance) limit warming below 3.0°C. Warming estimates have fallen by 0.1-0.2°C compared to the CAT’s September 2019 update. However, the reason is largely methodological changes and data updates rather than any major scaling-up of climate action

.....


If we do nothing we go up 4.1 to 4.8 degrees. But that’s actually a straw man because economics are reducing the use of carbon based fuels. 

Current policies will reduce it to 3.0 degrees they say, ignoring the effect of natural gas in the USA the biggest driver in the world carbon reduction.


And then here’s the hilarious clincher, if we follow the new unconditional targets governments have adopted we get to 2.8 degrees......all that effort and cost for 0.2 degrees by 2100.


But of course it’s all academic.... in the 20 years since 2000 temps have gone up about 0.35 degrees centigrade.....multiply that by 5 and you get 1.75 degrees. But long before then the natural warming cycle should start to abate.

For one thing the sun is projected to go into a weaker cycle and even Climate Change acolytes have to admit it’s played a role:


While solar changes have historically caused climate changes, the sun is mostly likely responsible for less than 15 percent of the global temperature increases we've seen over the last century, during which human-caused changes such as increased greenhouse gases caused the majority of warming."

If Climate Changers say it’s 15% you can be sure it’s the minimum. Expect a lot less warming 


MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
19 Apr 2020, 17:09
#100
19 Apr 2020, 17:09#100

Stav Anger what you don’t get about these models is they don’t stay the same.....the moment they get new actual data, they tweak them to better conform. Then they use the model to verify history and project effectively one year....by the time they get to the next year they have tweaked it again.


Then they celebrate their success at predicting a series that’s chugging along with tiny predictable changes each year. Twenty years ago many of these warmers were predicting a 7 degree increase by 2100.

ST
Stavanger1Pro4,532 posts
19 Apr 2020, 17:58
#101
19 Apr 2020, 17:58#101

@mozart

So rather than respond to the fact that you're previous claim that all models over estimate was shown to be demonstrably wrong, that the climate skeptic you keep quoting has almost no credibility or that you're claim that only the Russian models are accurate is seriously questionable, you just skip along to you're next point, ignoring all the evidence to the contrary.

But of course it’s all academic.... in the 20 years since 2000 temps have gone up about 0.35 degrees centigrade.....multiply that by 5 and you get 1.75 degrees. But long before then the natural warming cycle should start to abate.

Another extremely basic error here. You're assuming the rate of warming remains the same, its not its accelerating.

For one thing the sun is projected to go into a weaker cycle and even Climate Change acolytes have to admit it’s played a role:


Except the sun is already gone into a weaker cycle and temperatures are still going up. Even if a a periodic solar event known as the grand minimum was to occur which some scientists are speculating may be about to occur, NASA has concluded it would only provide a modest reduction in temperatures of about 0.3 degrees for a short period of time, after which the temperatures would begin to go back up.

While solar changes have historically caused climate changes, the sun is mostly likely responsible for less than 15 percent of the global temperature increases we've seen over the last century, during which human-caused changes such as increased greenhouse gases caused the majority of warming."

If Climate Changers say it’s 15% you can be sure it’s the minimum. Expect a lot less warming

Anything to back that up?

Stav Anger what you don’t get about these models is they don’t stay the same.....the moment they get new actual data, they tweak them to better conform. Then they use the model to verify history and project effectively one year....by the time they get to the next year they have tweaked it again.

How very clever with Stav Anger shtick, though in fairness its actually better than your arguments against climate change. I'm fully aware that models are replaced with more accurate models over time as new and better methodology comes along that allows for greater accuracy. This is part of the normal scientific process and these updated models have done nothing to disprove global warming.

You again show your lack of understanding of the scientific process. Its not tweaking data to better to conform, its ruling out biases that are throwing off the data. For example when satellite data was showing a cooling trend yet the readings on the ground where showing a warming trend, the data was re-analyzed and they discovered it was because the satellites orbit had declined meaning its temperature readings where occurring in the afternoon instead of midday when they where suppose to occur. Another example is the difference between sea temperature readings taken from ships and water buoys taken at the same location. Again the data was looked at a second time and a discovery was made that the ships engines where heating the water when the temperature readings were being made. These are the sort of biases that have to corrected and removed to have accurate data. Climate skeptics seize on any apparent data discrepancy and never bother to check the reasons behind it.

Then they celebrate their success at predicting a series that’s chugging along with tiny predictable changes each year. Twenty years ago many of these warmers were predicting a 7 degree increase by 2100.

Have you anything to back up that claim?


MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
19 Apr 2020, 19:51
#102
19 Apr 2020, 19:51#102
No the fact that adjusted models can conform with the historical record they are adjusting for, says little about their ability to predict the future. Here’s the view from the Hoover Institute of Stanford University.....a well respected source:
Flawed Climate Modelsby David R. HendersonCharles L. HooperTuesday, April 4, 2017

The atmosphere is about 0.8? Celsius warmer than it was in 1850. Given that the atmospheric concentration of carbon dioxide has risen 40 percent since 1750 and that CO2 is a greenhouse gas, a reasonable hypothesis is that the increase in CO2 has caused, and is causing, global warming.

But a hypothesis is just that. We have virtually no ability to run controlled experiments, such as raising and lowering CO2 levels in the atmosphere and measuring the resulting change in temperatures. What else can we do? We can build elaborate computer models that use physics to calculate how energy flows into, through, and out of our planet’s land, water, and atmosphere. Indeed, such models have been created and are frequently used today to make dire predictions about the fate of our Earth.

The problem is that these models have serious limitations that drastically limit their value in making predictions and in guiding policy. Specifically, three major problems exist. They are described below, and each one alone is enough to make one doubt the predictions. All three together deal a devastating blow to the forecasts of the current models.

  1. Measurement Error

Imagine that you’re timing a high school track athlete running 400 meters at the beginning of the school year, and you measure 56 seconds with your handheld stopwatch that reads to ±0.01 seconds. Imagine also that your reaction time is ±0.2 seconds. With your equipment, you can measure an improvement to 53 seconds by the end of the year. The difference between the two times is far larger than the resolution of the stopwatch combined with your imperfect reaction time, allowing you to conclude that the runner is indeed now faster. To get an idea of this runner’s improvement, you calculate a trend of 0.1 seconds per week (3 seconds in 30 weeks). But if you try to retest this runner after half a week, trying to measure the expected 0.05-second improvement, you will run into a problem. Can you measure such a small difference with the instrumentation at hand? No. There’s no point in even trying because you’ll have no way of discovering if the runner is faster: the size of what you are trying to measure is smaller than the size of the errors in your measurements.

Scientists present measurement error by describing the range around their measurements. They might, for example, say that a temperature is 20?C ±0.5?C. The temperature is probably 20.0?C, but it could reasonably be as high as 20.5?C or as low as 19.5?C.

Now consider the temperatures that are recorded by weather stations around the world.

Patrick Frank is a scientist at the Stanford Synchrotron Radiation Lightsource (SSRL), part of the SLAC National Accelerator Laboratory at Stanford University. Frank has published papers that explain how the errors in temperatures recorded by weather stations have been incorrectly handled. Temperature readings, he finds, have errors over twice as large as generally recognized. Based on this, Frank stated, in a 2011 article in Energy & Environment, “…the 1856–2004 global surface air temperature anomaly with its 95% confidence interval is 0.8?C ± 0.98?C.” The error bars are wider than the measured increase. It looks as if there’s an upward temperature trend, but we can’t tell definitively. We cannot reject the hypothesis that the world’s temperature has not changed at all.

  1. The Sun’s Energy

Climate models are used to assess the CO2-global warming hypothesis and to quantify the human-caused CO2 “fingerprint.”

How big is the human-caused CO2 fingerprint compared to other uncertainties in our climate model? For tracking energy flows in our model, we use watts per square meter (Wm–2). The sun’s energy that reaches the Earth’s atmosphere provides 342 Wm–2—an average of day and night, poles and equator—keeping it warm enough for us to thrive. The estimated extra energy from excess CO2—the annual anthropogenic greenhouse gas contribution—is far smaller, according to Frank, at 0.036 Wm–2, or 0.01 percent of the sun’s energy. If our estimate of the sun’s energy were off by more than 0.01 percent, that error would swamp the estimated extra energy from excess CO2. Unfortunately, the sun isn’t the only uncertainty we need to consider.

  1. Cloud Errors

Clouds reflect incoming radiation and also trap it as it is outgoing. A world entirely encompassed by clouds would have dramatically different atmospheric temperatures than one devoid of clouds. But modeling clouds and their effects has proven difficult. The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), the established global authority on climate change, acknowledges this in its most recent Assessment report, from 2013:

The simulation of clouds in climate models remains challenging. There is very high confidence that uncertainties in cloud processes explain much of the spread in modelled climate sensitivity. [bold and italics in original]

What is the net effect of cloudiness? Clouds lead to a cooler atmosphere by reducing the sun’s net energy by approximately 28 Wm–2. Without clouds, more energy would reach the ground and our atmosphere would be much warmer.  Why are clouds hard to model? They are amorphous; they reside at different altitudes and are layered on top of each other, making them hard to discern; they aren’t solid; they come in many different types; and scientists don’t fully understand how they form. As a result, clouds are modeled poorly. This contributes an average uncertainty of ±4.0 Wm–2 to the atmospheric thermal energy budget of a simulated atmosphere during a projection of global temperature. This thermal uncertainty is 110 times as large as the estimated annual extra energy from excess CO2. If our climate model’s calculation of clouds were off by just 0.9 percent—0.036 is 0.9 percent of 4.0—that error would swamp the estimated extra energy from excess CO2. The total combined errors in our climate model are estimated be about 150 Wm–2, which is over 4,000 times as large as the estimated annual extra energy from higher CO2 concentrations. Can we isolate such a faint signal?

In our track athlete example, this is equivalent to having a reaction time error of ±0.2 seconds while trying to measure a time difference of 0.00005 seconds between any two runs. How can such a slight difference in time be measured with such overwhelming error bars? How can the faint CO2 signal possibly be detected by climate models with such gigantic errors?

Other Complications

Even the relationship between CO2 concentrations and temperature is complicated.

The glacial record shows geological periods with rising CO2 and global cooling and periods with low levels of atmospheric CO2 and global warming. Indeed, according to a 2001 article in Climate Research by astrophysicist and geoscientist Willie Soon and his colleagues, “atmospheric CO2 tends to follow rather than lead temperature and biosphere changes.”

A large proportion of the warming that occurred in the 20th century occurred in the first half of the century, when the amount of anthropogenic CO2 in the air was one quarter of the total amount there now. The rate of warming then was very similar to the rate of warming recently. We can’t have it both ways. The current warming can’t be unambiguously caused by anthropogenic CO2 emissions if an earlier period experienced the same type of warming without the offending emissions.

Climate Model Secret Sauce

It turns out that climate models aren’t “plug and chug.” Numerous inputs are not the direct result of scientific studies; researchers need to “discover” them through parameter adjustment, or tuning, as it is called. If a climate model uses a grid of 25x25-kilometer boxes to divide the atmosphere and oceans into manageable chunks, storm clouds and low marine clouds off the California coast will be too small to model directly. Instead, according to a 2016 Science article by journalist Paul Voosen, modelers need to tune for cloud formation in each key grid based on temperature, atmospheric stability, humidity, and the presence of mountains. Modelers continue tuning climate models until they match a known 20th century temperature or precipitation record. And yet, at that point, we will have to ask whether these models are more subjective than objective. If a model shows a decline in Arctic sea ice, for instance—and we know that Arctic sea ice has, in fact, declined—is the model telling us something new or just regurgitating its adjustments?

Climate Model Errors

Before we put too much credence in any climate model, we need to assess its predictions. The following points highlight some of the difficulties of current models.

Vancouver, British Columbia, warmed by a full degree in the first 20 years of the 20th century, then cooled by two degrees over the next 40 years, and then warmed to the end the century, ending almost where it started. None of the six climate models tested by the IPCC reproduced this pattern. Further, according to scientist Patrick Frank in a 2015 article in Energy & Environment, the projected temperature trends of the models, which all employed the same theories and historical data, were as far apart as 2.5?C.

According to a 2002 article by climate scientists Vitaly Semenov and Lennart Bengtsson in Climate Dynamics, climate models have done a poor job of matching known global rainfall totals and patterns.

Climate models have been subjected to “perfect model tests,” in which the they were used to project a reference climate and then, with some minor tweaks to initial conditions, recreate temperatures in that same reference climate. This is basically asking a model to do the same thing twice, a task for which it should be ideally suited. In these tests, Frank found, the results in the first year correlated very well between the two runs, but years 2-9 showed such poor correlation that the results could have been random. Failing a perfect model test shows that the results aren’t stable and suggests a fundamental inability of the models to predict the climate.

The ultimate test for a climate model is the accuracy of its predictions. But the models predicted that there would be much greater warming between 1998 and 2014 than actually happened. If the models were doing a good job, their predictions would cluster symmetrically around the actual measured temperatures. That was not the case here; a mere 2.4 percent of the predictions undershot actual temperatures and 97.6 percent overshot, according to Cato Institute climatologist Patrick Michaels, former MIT meteorologist Richard Lindzen, and Cato Institute climate researcher Chip Knappenberger. Climate models as a group have been “running hot,” predicting about 2.2 times as much warming as actually occurred over 1998–2014. Of course, this doesn’t mean that no warming is occurring, but, rather, that the models’ forecasts were exaggerated.

Conclusions

If someone with a hand-held stopwatch tells you that a runner cut his time by 0.00005 seconds, you should be skeptical. If someone with a climate model tells you that a 0.036 Wm–2 CO2 signal can be detected within an environment of 150 Wm–2 error, you should be just as skeptical.

As Willie Soon and his coauthors found, “Our current lack of understanding of the Earth’s climate system does not allow us to determine reliably the magnitude of climate change that will be caused by anthropogenic CO2emissions, let alone whether this change will be for better or for worse.”



MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
19 Apr 2020, 20:02
#103
19 Apr 2020, 20:02#103

So there you have it....the models do well one year out, probably because they have been adjusted for the historical record and are projecting a stable sequence for a short time period. But they are so poor 2 to 9 years out that their results could have been random..

Pretty damning, but hard to find among the self vetting the modellers do and the Google hierarchy preferences.

I’d recommend you read the whole article, it covers some of the ground I have been trying to educate you about, but it’s a neat summary.

But to be honest I don’t even believe the sanctity of the temperature data.....the attitude among guys like Hansen appears to be that a lie is okay if it’s serving an important cause.

In short Climate Change remains unresolved and man made effects are undoubtedly overstated.....just by leaving out the solar effect for example. We are fine, the economic system is already driving lower carbon use and temperature changes are quite tolerable, probably beneficial.


ST
Stavanger1Pro4,532 posts
19 Apr 2020, 22:06
#104
19 Apr 2020, 22:06#104

@mozart

So there we have it...an article on climate change by two climate scientists...oh wait they are not they are economists. We might as well be taking our lead on climate change from Dr. Phil

Taking about arguments going in a circle, who are these two citing when it comes to Climate model errors, why its our good friend Patrick Michaels again, you know the same Patrick Michael's I've shown to have zero credibility.

They also cite Richard Lindzen, lets look at his track record.

https://skepticalscience.com/skeptic_Richard_Lindzen.htm

Just as bad as Michaels.

So no hardly damning I'm afraid.

But to be honest I don’t even believe the sanctity of the temperature data.....the attitude among guys like Hansen appears to be that a lie is okay if it’s serving an important cause.

You criticize Hansen, yet you cite articles by Patrick Michael's over and over, a man shown to have deliberately misrepresented other scientists work on several occasions and openly admits to being part funded by the fossil fuel industry?

In short Climate Change remains unresolved and man made effects are undoubtedly overstated.....just by leaving out the solar effect for example. We are fine, the economic system is already driving lower carbon use and temperature changes are quite tolerable, probably beneficial.

In short Climate Change can now be considered as a fact. There is unresolved issues, like how much the planet will heat by, and how much global warming is offset by human aerosol emissions, will clouds provided a positive or negative feedback. But the big picture question has already been answered in terms of knowing that the planet is warming rapidly, and that humans are the dominant cause.

And again, climate scientists are not leaving out solar effects.

https://skepticalscience.com/solar-activity-sunspots-global-warming-intermediate.htm

That page links to 19 different studies on the affects of solar activity on the climate.

As for the assertion that climate change will be "probably beneficial", so more droughts, mores floods, more occurrences of extreme weather, more animal extinctions, more polluted air, disruption to food supply, rising sea levels, more acidic sea's etc are beneficial?




MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
20 Apr 2020, 01:13
#105
20 Apr 2020, 01:13#105

Classical Climate Change tactic....personally attack the messenger. All the points they make have been made by many others, the models haven’t shown they can predict climate. They are simply best fit to existing data. And nobody who works at the Hoover institute can be that easily dismissed, it’s one of the country’s premier think tanks.

‘There is (sic) unresolved issues’.....sure like the huge house of cards built 0.8 degrees of temperature change in 80 years.

As for ‘more droughts, more floods, more extreme weather’....just an assertion. There is no evidence of that. And you left out more greening, new areas for crops and less morbidity.....humans have fared far worse during cold periods than warm periods.


The proof of the bias is so obvious, the Climate Change lobby never mentions one potential benefit from a warmer planet, if we are so lucky. Nothing is better, that defies logic.There have to be some benefits, but all we hear about is a series of disasters that never happen.

 

Nothing more to say  really....all your proofs come back to a modest temperature change which was well underway before carbon increased significantly in the atmosphere.


If you just want to believe without any grasp of the issues that’s your right. But at least you now know a lot more than you did before. No need to thank me.


ST
Stavanger1Pro4,532 posts
20 Apr 2020, 10:47
#106
20 Apr 2020, 10:47#106

"Classical Climate Change tactic....personally attack the messenger. All the points they make have been made by many others, the models haven’t shown they can predict climate. They are simply best fit to existing data. And nobody who works at the Hoover institute can be that easily dismissed, it’s one of the country’s premier think tanks."

Classic Climate Skeptic tactic...claim victimization. Just because others have made the point doesn't make the points valid, its evidence to back up a point that does. Again I've already shown you models that where correct which you just keeping ignoring. Its like debating with an Ostrich at this point. And you throw in another appeal to authority for good measure, yes they can be dismissed if they are they citing discredited climate skeptics with track records of lying to make their points and speaking outside their field of expertise.

‘There is (sic) unresolved issues’.....sure like the huge house of cards built 0.8 degrees of temperature change in 80 years.

There's that Ostrich again.

As for ‘more droughts, more floods, more extreme weather’....just an assertion. There is no evidence of that. And you left out more greening, new areas for crops and less morbidity.....humans have fared far worse during cold periods than warm periods.

The proof of the bias is so obvious, the Climate Change lobby never mentions one potential benefit from a warmer planet, if we are so lucky. Nothing is better, that defies logic.There have to be some benefits, but all we hear about is a series of disasters that never happen.

If there is no evidence for the negative effects of global warming there is no evidence for the positive affects.

Here is a comparison of positive vs negative effects, the article links to the research behind each.

https://skepticalscience.com/global-warming-positives-negatives-intermediate.htm

The reason that the positive benefits of global warming are never cited is the negative effects vastly outweigh them.

Nothing more to say  really....all your proofs come back to a modest temperature change which was well underway before carbon increased significantly in the atmosphere.

If you just want to believe without any grasp of the issues that’s your right. But at least you now know a lot more than you did before. No need to thank me.

I do, its 3 dots not 4

So lets just review.

You repeated multiple times long debunked amateur level arguments, that unusually cold weather at one location and time discredits the theory of global warming and that trace/small or modest amounts of something (gasses/temperature) can not have any significant impact.

You have made the claim that all the models supporting climate change have proven to be wrong, I've proven you demonstrably wrong.

You have made the claim that the models always over estimate warming indicating a bias. I've proven you demonstrably wrong.

You made the claim that climate scientists do not factor in solar activity. I've proven you demonstrably wrong.

You made the claim only the Russian models are correct. I've been able to cite expert opinions (including the Russian modelers themselves) that they been shown to be at least partially inaccurate.

You have cited work by researchers that you claim disproves all the climate models predicting climate warming, yet you have been shown to have not actually read the research and that the researchers in two of your examples cited have been shown to be proponents of climate change.

You've shown a lack of understanding of scientific processes, by mistaken bias/error correction a long established scientific process as data fiddling.

You made basic errors of assumption, i.e that the rate of climate warming is occurring at a fixed rate.

You attacked the credibility of climate change scientists by repeating grossly distorted misrepresentations of their work by climate skeptics who have long since shown to have been dishonest and lacking credibility.

You have claimed climate change proponents have a stake in climate change. You provided no evidence of that claim yet the climate skeptic you have repeatedly cited has openly admitted to being funded by the fossil fuel industry.

Your correction of my grammar has been exposed as being seriously hypocritical.

At this stage you're like the Black Knight in Monty Python and the Holy Grail. "Tis but a sc ratch!"


CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
20 Apr 2020, 11:17
#107
20 Apr 2020, 11:17#107

Stav

There is no chance that some members on site will agree with you on issues like climate change, the EU and Stander,   There are reasons and your critics are not beyond being criticized,  

I am not an expert on anything and like to ask questions about things that could be criticized,  For instance I went to France in 1973 and the northern industrial area was thriving, I went there in 2000 and 2007 and the area was as dead as a doornail from an industrial perspective,  When asked about it some French people I spoke to about it  claimed that it resulted from the EU trade policies,  That type of thing lead to further questions on the beneficial value of the EU for the ordinary workers in countries. 

As to climate change I believe things should be done to protect the environment and that not enough is done,  I seriously think the issue should be dealt with outside of politics - since it is an issue which could and does effect everybody.   What I do dislike is the claims made by politicians for instance  that if the extreme measures they advocate politically are not implemented human life on earth will cease by 2032.

Ultimately I dislike things that the ultra-wealthy advocates,  They all talk about changes that could lead to a human catastrophe and reduce the world population to 500 million - the figure Bill Gates apparently thinks is the ideal world population.   

It is tragic that there is no real rugby issues to be discussed - I am missing the games terribly, Hope it returns soon.                        

ST
Stavanger1Pro4,532 posts
20 Apr 2020, 12:33
#108
20 Apr 2020, 12:33#108

There is no chance that some members on site will agree with you on issues like climate change, the EU and Stander,   There are reasons and your critics are not beyond being criticized, 

Fair enough, seems to defeat the purpose of a discussion forum though.

I am not an expert on anything and like to ask questions about things that could be criticized,  For instance I went to France in 1973 and the northern industrial area was thriving, I went there in 2000 and 2007 and the area was as dead as a doornail from an industrial perspective,  When asked about it some French people I spoke to about it  claimed that it resulted from the EU trade policies,  That type of thing lead to further questions on the beneficial value of the EU for the ordinary workers in countries.

Well this is going off topic. Firstly just because some French people you spoke to claimed the decline of industry in their region was due to EU trade policies doesn't mean its true. But say that it is true, no one claims the EU is a perfect institution but just like in the climate change debate where there is some benefits to climate change you got to look at and then weigh the pro's and cons of any organization or argument. What about the subsidies French farmers get from the EU, do more people in France benefit from them then the decline in Northern Industry. You can't take a single negative in isolation and use it as an argument against something, you have to weigh all the positives and negatives and base your conclusion off that.

As to climate change I believe things should be done to protect the environment and that not enough is done.

Great we agree on this?

I seriously think the issue should be dealt with outside of politics - since it is an issue which could and does effect everybody.

You want to leave it to the likes of fossil fuel companies to manage this on their own. Politicians run countries of course they will have to be involved. Do you think Tobacco companies would have come out and said smoking kills you if they hadn't been compelled to do so. Do you think people would obey speed limits on road if they where not enforced etc. That reasoning doesn't make sense.

What I do dislike is the claims made by politicians for instance  that if the extreme measures they advocate politically are not implemented human life on earth will cease by 2032.


Ultimately I dislike things that the ultra-wealthy advocates,  They all talk about changes that could lead to a human catastrophe and reduce the world population to 500 million - the figure Bill Gates apparently thinks is the ideal world population.  

Dislike them all you want, your should be taking your lead on the climate issue from the research and evidence from climate scientists not wealthy advocates or celebrities no matter how good or bad their intentions are.

I miss rugby too

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
20 Apr 2020, 17:45
#109
20 Apr 2020, 17:45#109
So  I assume that’s your final desperate volley:
1 Now it’s victimization to observe that any attempt to even debate Climate Change is met with personal attacks. Nope the personal attacks are a tactic  to end debate.
2 There are unresolved issues with regard to the 1.2 degrees of Warming. The Climate is never dead flat. Warming has been going on long before carbon could be an explanation and carbon is only one factor in the warming in the second half of the 20th century.
1910 to 1940 when carbon was a fraction of what it is now temps went up 0.45 degrees. From 1990 to 2020 when carbon was supposedly rampant temps went up 0.5 degrees. Very similar but with  vastly different increases in man made carbon.
Forty percent of the increase since the IR occurred before man made carbon could have been the cause.
3 There is no serious attempt to investigate possible benefits from Climate Change but every day we read some new lurid account of supposed Climate effects......bias.
4 As for your list
.....yes climate models have failed to predict the future, they are better at explaining the past because they adjusted for the past
.....some scientists  do factor in solar  in their models, but the whole increase in temperatures is still attributed to man made carbon
....the fact that I cite negative findings from researchers who nonetheless believe Climate Change is totally legitimate. 
....The Russian models have been more accurate in predicting the future. 
......I have made the mistake of assuming warming is increasing at a constant rate? Where? But the rate between 1910 to 1940 is not much different from the rate between 1990 and 2020.
....climate scientists are legitimate, but climate skeptics are dishonest. That pretty much sums up the bias.
.....you don’t think that all these Climate Studies are funded by huge grants which the scientists are desperate to get and available almost exclusively for studies which prove Climate Change?
......................
A nothing burger from a true believer, who never knew there were Russian models, never knew 40% of the temp increase occurred before carbon increased significantly, never understood the effect of man made CO2 is 1/1000 of the Greenhouse effect, never knew cosmic rays had an influence, never knew the cloud effect is almost impossible to model, never knew the sea levels have been increasing for 300 years.
Never knew all this stuff....but believed. It’s the new religion along with it’s heretics, the Climate Deniers. Which I guess makes my new term for your group  Climate Followers.
ST
Stavanger1Pro4,532 posts
20 Apr 2020, 19:34
#110
20 Apr 2020, 19:34#110

You just keeping coming back for more.

1 Now it’s victimization to observe that any attempt to even debate Climate Change is met with personal attacks. Nope the personal attacks are a tactic  to end debate.

You're the one who called Hansen a liar, yet his models have proven to be accurate, you're also been the ones who keeps referencing articles of climate skeptics who have proven to to be dishonest or have referenced peoples articles who are speaking outside their fields of expertise  and basing the premise of a least part of their articles on the same discredited climate skeptics. I'm perfectly entitled to attack the credibility of said people.

2 There are unresolved issues with regard to the 0.8 degrees of Warming. The Climate is never dead flat. Warming has been going on long before carbon could be an explanation and carbon is only one factor in the warming in the second half of the 20th century.

No climate scientist that is a proponent of man made climate change ever claimed that the climate is dead flat. The reasons for warming before carbon was a an issue are well known and documented. These reasons (these reasons, such as orbital tilt, solar activity etc) have been looked at and ruled out as the primary cause of the current global warming.

4 As for your list
.....yes climate models have failed to predict the future, they are better at explaining the past because they adjusted for the past
Again demonstrating your ignorance of the scientific process.


1910 to 1940 when carbon was a fraction of what it is now temps went up 0.45 degrees. From 1990 to 2020 when carbon was supposedly rampant temps went up 0.5 degrees. Very similar but with  vastly different increases in man made carbon.
Forty percent of the increase since the IR occurred before man made carbon could have been the cause.

Which has been explained by an increased period of solar activity, and a lack of volcanic activity during that period. Solar activity has been stable or even in slight decline since the 1950's and volcanic activity increased in the second half of the 20th century.

3 There is no serious attempt to investigate possible benefits from Climate Change but every day we read some new lurid account of supposed Climate effects......bias.

https://skepticalscience.com/global-warming-positives-negatives-intermediate.htm

Already posted above, you clearly didn't bother to look or just ignored it, pages links to 15 different investigations into positive effects of Global warming.

....some scientists  do factor in solar  in their models, but the whole increase in temperatures is still attributed to man made carbon

Once again, you're wrong, use google and enlighten yourself within about 30 seconds.

....the fact that I cite negative findings from researchers who nonetheless believe Climate Change is totally legitimate.

So why is it when they point out flaws in certain climate models is it they still support the theory of man made climate change and don't cite their research as something that disproves it, maybe they are capable of balanced reasoning and looking at the whole picture, maybe they know something you don't!

....The Russian models have been more accurate in predicting the future.

How would you know, you clearly haven't read them, you're just repeating Patrick Michael's words a climate skeptic with zero credibility.

......I have made the mistake of assuming warming is increasing at a constant rate? Where? But the rate between 1910 to 1940 is not much different from the rate between 1990 and 2020.

To quote you


"But of course it’s all academic.... in the 20 years since 2000 temps have gone up about 0.35 degrees centigrade.....multiply that by 5 and you get 1.75 degrees. But long before then the natural warming cycle should start to abate."

....climate scientists are legitimate, but climate skeptics are dishonest. That pretty much sums up the bias

Not all climate skeptics are dishonest,  but the ones you have referenced are. The fact that you repeatedly take of side of pretty much any and every skeptical viewpoint without question or any form of fact checking indicates who's the biased person in discussion. I think biased is too mild a word at this point, indoctrinated would be more appropriate. 

.....you don’t think that all these Climate Studies are funded by huge grants which the scientists are desperate to get and available almost exclusively for studies which prove Climate Change?

More conspiracy rubbish. Not a shred of evidence to back it up. Nor have you shown any indication you have investigated the motives of the skeptics you frequently cite.

A nothing burger from a true believer, who never knew there were Russian models, never knew 40% of the temp increase occurred before carbon increased significantly, never understood the effect of man made CO2 is 1/1000 of the Greenhouse effect, never knew cosmic rays had an influence, never knew the cloud effect is almost impossible to model, never knew the sea levels have been increasing for 300 years.
Never knew all this stuff....but believed. It’s the new religion along with it’s heretics, the Climate Deniers. Which I guess makes my new term for your group  Climate Followers.
I can refute that in one word. Gibberish. In two words, absolute gibberish.

RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
20 Apr 2020, 19:41
#111
20 Apr 2020, 19:41#111

Watching Stav exposing Moffie's pathetic bias and laughable ignorance on this thread has been likened to Ivan Drago beating up Apollo Creed from Rocky 4 . . . but I've been binge-watching Game of Thrones during the lockdown and I reckon it's more like Ramsay Bolton turning Theon Greyjoy into Reek . . . with Moffie in the role of Reek shortly after he's had his cock cut off watching Ramsay eating what he claims to be a pork sausage.

ST
Stavanger1Pro4,532 posts
20 Apr 2020, 20:46
#113
20 Apr 2020, 20:46#113

At this stage this is what this debate feels like


MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
20 Apr 2020, 21:45
#114
20 Apr 2020, 21:45#114

Yet another feeble volley

1.Hansen is the only of your sources I have questioned, because he has a controversial record

//stevengoddard.wordpress.com/spectacularly-poor-climate-science-at-nasa/

Look at the article you might learn how the record has been changed. And then you can rush off and try and find an article discrediting the author.

2 climate scientists don’t claim man made carbon is the only ‘forcing’ but they never give other factors any role in the 1.2 degrees warming since the IR. If they do what is the number?

3 I guess you gave up on your 3, very wise.

4 Actually you are the one who is ignorant, the standard scientific practice is to use past data to improve the models....but then to use the model to predict the future, not to claim victory when a model based on the past comports with the past.

5 If somebody cites a data point I am at liberty to use it, whether I agree with their overall conclusion or not.

6 The Climate Skeptic defence again...not worth bothering about.

7 The grant issue isn’t even in question, you clearly don’t understand the process. Having been on the staff and the Board of major universities I do.

8 Your refutation is childish. You yourself admitted you never knew how much man made CO2 is in the atmosphere. Are we done?




CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
20 Apr 2020, 21:47
#115
20 Apr 2020, 21:47#115

Stav

Maybe you did not understand me totally,  I do not want politicians to use climate change for ulterior motives with an objective that has zero to do with climate change and everything to do with extremism like advocated by people like Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez - who at one stage wanted cattle-farming banned because cows fart and by that cause air pollution which affects global warming or wants cauliflower eliminated because it is an alien invader plant in the USA,  She was so mocked after her remarks - like "Alexandra for President in 2032" - that she changed her remarks on that one,   She also wanted "Technology that has not even been invented yet" to replace the present transport systems.   The problem is that stupidity like that gives climate change a bad name.   

The other problem is that idiots like her on the New Yok Council  named the use of steel and glass in new buildings in New York City - since the production of Steel and Glass cause global warming,   

That is the type of thing that makes me despise politicians.

I would like to see a science based policy being developed with due regard to practical solutions that would not destroy the lives of ordinary people.  Food production should not be an issue and should be safeguarded against fanatics who want to see commercial farming eliminated and subsistence farming  be used,  

Anyway there needs to be a better system where alternatives should be considered to measures where people believe they would not see their lives destroyed.   

Anyway - as you pointed  out - this is a discussion forum and if everybody agrees with each other the forum would not be necessary and people would lose interest/   We have no rugby to discuss now - so this is a type of topic that would help at this stage,

By the way - People in SA do not even know that Rassie Erasmus is married with children and Erasmus is so protective about his family that the general public does not even know where he lives.   I came across an article where he spoke glowingly about the friendliness of the Irish people and how they managed to make him, his wife and children feel at home in Ireland.  He referred to how shocked he was about Foley's death and the letter he and the team wrote to the family,                 

ST
Stavanger1Pro4,532 posts
21 Apr 2020, 00:13
#116
21 Apr 2020, 00:13#116

Yet another feeble volley

1.Hansen is the only of your sources I have questioned, because he has a controversial record

//stevengoddard.wordpress.com/spectacularly-poor-climate-science-at-nasa/

Look at the article you might learn how the record has been changed. And then you can rush off and try and find an article discrediting the author.

Hansen is not one of my sources, you brought him up by linking to Patrick Michael's articles articles attacking his credibility.

As for your linked article, I don't need to find an article discrediting the author because I've already come across him. The article you  posted is from the website run by Tony Heller (who once again isn't a climate scientist). He had a youtube debate last year with Peter Hadfield (aka Potholer54) after Heller posted a video critiquing one of Potholer's videos on climate change, entitled debunking the debunker, this lead to a rebuttal from Potholer and several back and forth video responses between the two. During the course of the video debate, Heller was proven to be yet another dishonest amateur climate skeptic, who made over a dozen inaccurate claims about Potholers videos that Potholer systematically debunked with video evidence, links to his sources, studies and peer reviewed papers, something Heller was unable to do. Heller like you just reverted to appeals to authority.

Link to a list of the videos in the debate here. Its interesting but there is well over an hour of content in these videos.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLIhjKYKf766APsZlSxNkDl0-Ep-7XklcE

2 climate scientists don’t claim man made carbon is the only ‘forcing’ but they never give other factors any role in the 1.2 degrees warming since the IR. If they do what is the number?

Because after looking at both man made and natural causes of forcing, the data, research, studies and evidence shows man made carbon is responsible for the vast if not all of the current warming.

https://www.carbonbrief.org/analysis-why-scientists-think-100-of-global-warming-is-due-to-humans

3 I guess you gave up on your 3, very wise.

Once again you make a claim you can't back up. I linked to a source that contains 15 different studies on the positive effects on climate change, and yet you claim I'm the one who gave up.

4 Actually you are the one who is ignorant, the standard scientific practice is to use past data to improve the models....but then to use the model to predict the future, not to claim victory when a model based on the past comports with the past.

Another straw man with no supporting evidence.

5 If somebody cites a data point I am at liberty to use it, whether I agree with their overall conclusion or not.

So you can't tell me why the authors of the data point you cite, don't make the claim that you do that it proves all climate models that predict global warming are wrong? Tell me why if the authors are credible enough to get that data point right, then why istheir overall view on climate change not credible?

6 The Climate Skeptic defence again...not worth bothering about.

Can you refute the claim the Michael's salary is payed by the fossil fuel industry and has a track record of distorting data?

7 The grant issue isn’t even in question, you clearly don’t understand the process. Having been on the staff and the Board of major universities I do.

More conspiracy theory bunkem and yet another appeal to authority.

8 Your refutation is childish. You yourself admitted you never knew how much man made CO2 is in the atmosphere. Are we done?

Was I the person who first started acting like a child. Maybe I'm degeneration to you're level at this point.  And you're still wanging on about how little man made CO2 is in the atmosphere like it actually means something. Whether or not I new the exact figure it doesn't change the fact your argument is utterly utterly meaningless. How many times do I need to say it, just because something is small doesn't mean it can't have a significant impact.  Talking about being stubborn.





MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
21 Apr 2020, 00:44
#117
21 Apr 2020, 00:44#117

‘Maybe I’m degeneration to you’re level at this point’. Hilarious now when you should use ‘your’ you come up with ‘you’re’......and you are ‘degeneration’....hahaha, I’d say.


The rest of the childish snippy Stav Angry stuff I have dealt with before and discredited, enough said.


So sonny let me ask you, did you actually look at the changes in the temperature record demonstrated in the link and apparently approved by Hansen?

ST
Stavanger1Pro4,532 posts
21 Apr 2020, 02:08
#118
21 Apr 2020, 02:08#118

"Maybe I’m degeneration to you’re level at this point’. Hilarious now when you should use ‘your’ you come up with ‘you’re’......and you are ‘degeneration’....hahaha, I’d say.

The rest of the childish snippy Stav Angry stuff I have dealt with before and discredited, enough said."

Sorry I was too busy having viscous kanipshin to check my grammar.

Someones being discredited here alright. Do you have a mirror close to hand?

So sonny let me ask you, did you actually look at the changes in the temperature record demonstrated in the link and apparently approved by Hansen?

I did. The changes in the temperature records are accounted for by scientific process of adjusting the data to remove biases from raw data. As explained below.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/global-warming-data-faked/

To call this data fiddling or any form of data deception again shows both your own and Heller's lack of understanding of normal scientific processes.

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
21 Apr 2020, 04:36
#119
21 Apr 2020, 04:36#119

A ‘viscous kanipshin’ gosh sounds serious. Let me know if you are unable to continue.

But back to the data fiddling. After a century of data collection, NASA suddenly decides the data has to be sanitized, and surprise we add 0.3 degrees to global warming, more or less doubling the 20th century record.


Why? In part because of heat islands supposedly. But hold on, wouldn’t recognizing heat islands reduce warming. Or because  stations take temperatures at different times a day. Gosh how careless of them, they can’t even figure out when to take measurements. But craftily this isn’t random, it’s done in a way to depress warming.


Give me a break. NASA is all in on global warming perhaps because after the end of the space race they never had a defining mission. 

The sanctity of  the data is a big issue in the Warming debate.



ST
Stavanger1Pro4,532 posts
21 Apr 2020, 14:08
#120
21 Apr 2020, 14:08#120

Again its not data fiddling its just the scientific process of going back over old data with new and improved methodologies to improve accuracy. This is standard scientific practice and is done in every field of science not just climate sceince

Why? In part because of heat islands supposedly. But hold on, wouldn’t recognizing heat islands reduce warming. Or because  stations take temperatures at different times a day. Gosh how careless of them, they can’t even figure out when to take measurements. But craftily this isn’t random, it’s done in a way to depress warming.

It wasn't just temperatures at different times of day, stations have also changed locations, sometimes multiple times, sometimes to different elevations,  changes in equipment used to take measurements, the accounting of the urban heat effect due to more stations being in built up urban areas, adding in missing data and improved models with larger sets of data. And Nasa do not run the temperature monitoring stations, they are largely run by volunteers.

Give me a break. NASA is all in on global warming perhaps because after the end of the space race they never had a defining mission. 

The sanctity of  the data is a big issue in the Warming debate.
More conspiracy theory nonsense with zero evidence provided.
Tell me are all the all these scientific organizations and academies in on the scam as well?
  1. Academia Chilena de Ciencias, Chile
  2. Academia das Ciencias de Lisboa, Portugal
  3. Academia de Ciencias de la República Dominicana
  4. Academia de Ciencias Físicas, Matemáticas y Naturales de Venezuela
  5. Academia de Ciencias Medicas, Fisicas y Naturales de Guatemala
  6. Academia Mexicana de Ciencias,Mexico
  7. Academia Nacional de Ciencias de Bolivia
  8. Academia Nacional de Ciencias del Peru
  9. Académie des Sciences et Techniques du Sénégal
  10. Académie des Sciences, France
  11. Academies of Arts, Humanities and Sciences of Canada
  12. Academy of Athens
  13. Academy of Science of Mozambique
  14. Academy of Science of South Africa
  15. Academy of Sciences for the Developing World (TWAS)
  16. Academy of Sciences Malaysia
  17. Academy of Sciences of Moldova
  18. Academy of Sciences of the Czech Republic
  19. Academy of Sciences of the Islamic Republic of Iran
  20. Academy of Scientific Research and Technology, Egypt
  21. Academy of the Royal Society of New Zealand
  22. Accademia Nazionale dei Lincei, Italy
  23. Africa Centre for Climate and Earth Systems Science
  24. African Academy of Sciences
  25. Albanian Academy of Sciences
  26. Amazon Environmental Research Institute
  27. American Academy of Pediatrics
  28. American Anthropological Association
  29. American Association for the Advancement of Science
  30. American Association of State Climatologists (AASC)
  31. American Association of Wildlife Veterinarians
  32. American Astronomical Society
  33. American Chemical Society
  34. American College of Preventive Medicine
  35. American Fisheries Society
  36. American Geophysical Union
  37. American Institute of Biological Sciences
  38. American Institute of Physics
  39. American Meteorological Society
  40. American Physical Society
  41. American Public Health Association
  42. American Quaternary Association
  43. American Society for Microbiology
  44. American Society of Agronomy
  45. American Society of Civil Engineers
  46. American Society of Plant Biologists
  47. American Statistical Association
  48. Association of Ecosystem Research Centers
  49. Australian Academy of Science
  50. Australian Bureau of Meteorology
  51. Australian Coral Reef Society
  52. Australian Institute of Marine Science
  53. Australian Institute of Physics
  54. Australian Marine Sciences Association
  55. Australian Medical Association
  56. Australian Meteorological and Oceanographic Society  
  57. Bangladesh Academy of Sciences
  58. Botanical Society of America
  59. Brazilian Academy of Sciences
  60. British Antarctic Survey
  61. Bulgarian Academy of Sciences
  62. California Academy of Sciences
  63. Cameroon Academy of Sciences
  64. Canadian Association of Physicists
  65. Canadian Foundation for Climate and Atmospheric Sciences
  66. Canadian Geophysical Union
  67. Canadian Meteorological and Oceanographic Society
  68. Canadian Society of Soil Science
  69. Canadian Society of Zoologists
  70. Caribbean Academy of Sciences views
  71. Center for International Forestry Research
  72. Chinese Academy of Sciences
  73. Colombian Academy of Exact, Physical and Natural Sciences
  74. Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organization (CSIRO) (Australia)
  75. Consultative Group on International Agricultural Research
  76. Croatian Academy of Arts and Sciences
  77. Crop Science Society of America
  78. Cuban Academy of Sciences
  79. Delegation of the Finnish Academies of Science and Letters
  80. Ecological Society of America
  81. Ecological Society of Australia
  82. Environmental Protection Agency
  83. European Academy of Sciences and Arts
  84. European Federation of Geologists
  85. European Geosciences Union
  86. European Physical Society
  87. European Science Foundation
  88. Federation of American Scientists
  89. French Academy of Sciences
  90. Geological Society of America
  91. Geological Society of Australia
  92. Geological Society of London
  93. Georgian Academy of Sciences
  94. German Academy of Natural Scientists Leopoldina  
  95. Ghana Academy of Arts and Sciences
  96. Indian National Science Academy
  97. Indonesian Academy of Sciences  
  98. Institute of Ecology and Environmental Management
  99. Institute of Marine Engineering, Science and Technology
  100. Institute of Professional Engineers New Zealand
  101. Institution of Mechanical Engineers, UK
  102. InterAcademy Council
  103. International Alliance of Research Universities
  104. International Arctic Science Committee
  105. International Association for Great Lakes Research
  106. International Council for Science
  107. International Council of Academies of Engineering and Technological Sciences
  108. International Research Institute for Climate and Society
  109. International Union for Quaternary Research
  110. International Union of Geodesy and Geophysics
  111. International Union of Pure and Applied Physics
  112. Islamic World Academy of Sciences
  113. Israel Academy of Sciences and Humanities
  114. Kenya National Academy of Sciences
  115. Korean Academy of Science and Technology
  116. Kosovo Academy of Sciences and Arts
  117. l'Académie des Sciences et Techniques du Sénégal
  118. Latin American Academy of Sciences
  119. Latvian Academy of Sciences
  120. Lithuanian Academy of Sciences
  121. Madagascar National Academy of Arts, Letters, and Sciences
  122. Mauritius Academy of Science and Technology
  123. Montenegrin Academy of Sciences and Arts
  124. National Academy of Exact, Physical and Natural Sciences, Argentina
  125. National Academy of Sciences of Armenia
  126. National Academy of Sciences of the Kyrgyz Republic
  127. National Academy of Sciences, Sri Lanka
  128. National Academy of Sciences, United States of America
  129. National Aeronautics and Space Administration  
  130. National Association of Geoscience Teachers
  131. National Association of State Foresters
  132. National Center for Atmospheric Research  
  133. National Council of Engineers Australia
  134. National Institute of Water & Atmospheric Research, New Zealand
  135. National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration
  136. National Research Council
  137. National Science Foundation
  138. Natural England
  139. Natural Environment Research Council, UK
  140. Natural Science Collections Alliance
  141. Network of African Science Academies
  142. New York Academy of Sciences
  143. Nicaraguan Academy of Sciences
  144. Nigerian Academy of Sciences
  145. Norwegian Academy of Sciences and Letters
  146. Oklahoma Climatological Survey
  147. Organization of Biological Field Stations
  148. Pakistan Academy of Sciences
  149. Palestine Academy for Science and Technology
  150. Pew Center on Global Climate Change
  151. Polish Academy of Sciences
  152. Romanian Academy
  153. Royal Academies for Science and the Arts of Belgium
  154. Royal Academy of Exact, Physical and Natural Sciences of Spain
  155. Royal Astronomical Society, UK
  156. Royal Danish Academy of Sciences and Letters
  157. Royal Irish Academy
  158. Royal Meteorological Society (UK)
  159. Royal Netherlands Academy of Arts and Sciences
  160. Royal Netherlands Institute for Sea Research
  161. Royal Scientific Society of Jordan
  162. Royal Society of Canada
  163. Royal Society of Chemistry, UK
  164. Royal Society of the United Kingdom
  165. Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences
  166. Russian Academy of Sciences
  167. Science and Technology, Australia  
  168. Science Council of Japan
  169. Scientific Committee on Antarctic Research
  170. Scientific Committee on Solar-Terrestrial Physics
  171. Scripps Institution of Oceanography
  172. Serbian Academy of Sciences and Arts
  173. Slovak Academy of Sciences
  174. Slovenian Academy of Sciences and Arts
  175. Society for Ecological Restoration International
  176. Society for Industrial and Applied Mathematics
  177. Society of American Foresters   
  178. Society of Biology (UK)   
  179. Society of Systematic Biologists
  180. Soil Science Society of America
  181. Sudan Academy of Sciences
  182. Sudanese National Academy of Science
  183. Tanzania Academy of Sciences
  184. The Wildlife Society (international)
  185. Turkish Academy of Sciences
  186. Uganda National Academy of Sciences
  187. Union of German Academies of Sciences and Humanities
  188. United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change
  189. University Corporation for Atmospheric Research
  190. Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution
  191. Woods Hole Research Center
  192. World Association of Zoos and Aquariums
  193. World Federation of Public Health Associations
  194. World Forestry Congress
  195. World Health Organization
  196. World Meteorological Organization
  197. Zambia Academy of Sciences
  198. Zimbabwe Academy of Sciences


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