To think about God in human terms is like an ant thinking about humans in his terms. We are doomed to only understand Creation in a limited incomplete way...we will always strive to know it all, but we never will. Only fools think they know it all...fools on both sides of the spectrum.
Rooi, Adam and Eve migh havet bern real people, but then they weren't the only people. Much more likely a parable for brevity's sake.
I don't believe in a world wide flood. As for The Ark...some sort of vessel with a lot of animals, but definitely not all species on Earth... but that kind of details are not important. The Bible is not supposed to be a science textbook.
Redneck ... we all know that you've rejected the Bible in it's entirety ... and that it's no more than a compilation of fairy tales in your opinion.
There are many, many folks out there that view the Bible in the same light.
Like you, they too are desperate to convince us all of the farce ... and so in come their "experts" ... with their theories ... and a whole lot of ... "could it be's" and "perhaps'" and "I put it to you's" ... and, and, and ... then when they're done, they leave .. with the Bible still intact.
It doesn't take them long to put another team of "experts" together ... with a fresh approach ... and when they're all finished pounding their fists on the podium, they too leave ... and so it's been going on for hundreds of years ... and guess what ... the Bible remains still to this day.
I must say, I never could understand your passion to disprove the existence of God. What drives you guys to persist with this folly? Is the belief in someone / something so abhorrent that your need has become a life's mission to some of you?
It's a fight you cannot win ... no matter how many thumbsuck theories you bring. It's all based on conjecture.
I have had some interesting discussions with people on this subject and am therefore hopeful that that your ... "Draad, do you believe in things like Adam and Eve and Noah's Ark?" ... (an obvious attempt at baiting) ... has a fresh and interesting intended direction. That it's not the usual ... "do you honestly believe that they managed to get two of every kind of creature into this small little row boat" ... cause if that's the best you can do then rather leave it.
Draad ... if you read the word you will see that it clearly states that God created man, male and female and told them to go forth and multiply.
In other words ... this "man animal" for lack of a better word, was already established as a living herd or horde before Adam and Eve even existed.
From this herd, one "man animal" was selected ... who then received the breath of life from God, which transformed him and he became a living soul.
This quickened "man animal" was then put to sleep and from him a rib was removed to form woman.
When Cain was abolished for murdering his brother, he went out into the wilderness ... and came across various tribes of men. Where did these men come from, you may ask?
Well, they're all part of the original creation.
The Bible has a vast amount of information. All one needs to do is look properly and ask for guidance and understanding. Sometimes He's gracious enough to bring you revelation. It's life changing.
Most of it is hidden though ... for obvious reasons ... and so an assortment of theories spring up, confirming the ignorance of the godless.
Adam and Eve the original sin. This is why man had to make church donations to gain forgiveness. "Saved a wretch like Cleancut", please pass the donations tray....
"CC, you confuse me. I don't know what else to say about it."
You and me both Blue
CupCake seems to be confusing himself
If you read a few of his posts he doesn't seem to properly explain his thought process
Maybe he should resort to rather drawing us some pictures.
The Bible has a vast amount of information. All one needs to do is look properly and ask for guidance and understanding. Sometimes He's gracious enough to bring you revelation. It's life changing
Good luck with your quest... I hope you see Him for what He is ... a bully.
Usually He takes whatever wants ... and yet it seems that we for once have the right to decide on what we do with our soul.
Sometimes he is gracious?, but he is also a bully?, and he usually takes whatever he wants?, but he sometimes (if he is in a fantastic mood that day) he brings you revelation?, and it's life changing.....?
Cool, makes perfect sense
Well it does make sense in an odd kind of way...I don't see it like that, but can understand some do.
If you do not make the bus into Heaven at least the Devil will have a warm place with music for you in hell. You can always rely on Lucifer. Ask Hansie who is the captain of the Hell Cats cricket team whom are undefeated ...
Fully agree, BlueBok.
No doubt you've given it proper thought and decided on a road to take. In the end it's your choice and whatever the cost of your decision is yours to bear ... as it is with us all.
Blind faith or as you put it, "blind loyalty", is a dangerous thing. People take advantage of it and you usually end up a lot worse off in the end.
I was invited to a gathering back in the 90's and what transpired there changed my life. It's not a matter of me ever having a decision on the subject. Something dramatic happened to me and I can never return to the way I saw things. It's just not possible.
Since then, the question "does God exit?" is no longer something I ask myself. It became more like "who is this guy and how close will He allow me"?
What a journey.
Now ... I'm a little pissed off with Him ... but it doesn't change the fact that one day I will give an account of my life to Him ... and whatever He decides ... will be my fate.
He knows my heart ... and every thought of mine is like a trumpet call before him, so there's no hiding anything from him.
Unlike Beandip, I am not trying to persuade you or anyone else to become a follower of Christ.
I will however attempt to expel the nonsense that there is no God.
Whether He's a good guy or not, is up to each individual to decide ... or in your case not to even bother. No disrespect intended.
DumbAss ... confused? Really?
Like you He has a distinctive personality, with likes and dislikes. He can be incredibly kind and gentle ... and other times a very stubborn hard-arse.
Does that help?
Well Redneck ... then I must be stupid.
You are the author of this thread ... not so ... and it's not the first time that this subject matter has come up with you. In other words, you have an agenda.
What is it?
Is it to give me your views ... and then to listen to mine ... patiently? To chat about how it all started ... or what our purpose in life is ... or what happens to us when we die ... or maybe even about the existence of God?
Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahahaha!!
Bullshit!!
You don't believe in anything other than ... we live, we die ... and that's all she wrote. You've made that abundantly clear ... so why revisit the subject ... unless ... you have unanswered questions ... or ... that the absurd theories you've put together and relied on for so long in an argument, somehow seem rather pedestrian now ... boring ... silly ... so yesterday ... and let me guess ... you're looking for new material, right?
No?
Of course you want to convince us of your absurd theories and yes, I have you pegged correctly ... so please stop pretending innocence.
You are argumentative ... always have been ... and I cannot see that changing any day soon.
DumbAss ... confused? Really?
Like you He has a distinctive personality, with likes and dislikes. He can be incredibly kind and gentle ... and other times a very stubborn hard-arse.
Does that help?
Ok, so to be very clear here.....you have given your life completely over to a bully...…..
None of us ever know that we are dead or alive and sleeping, when we do fall asleep every single night
You are never conscious of that very fact, that you are just sleeping...….. you could have died in your sleep and never woken up, and you would not know the difference.
So, it's fair to say, none of us will know as a matter of fact, when we have died, or are dead
What??
So DumbAss ... what you are saying is that you believe in some sort of existence after the grave.
Maybe you never recovered from your sickbed. Maybe you went on to the happy hunting grounds ... totally unaware.
It certainly would explain all the shit you're talking.
What??
So DumbAss ... what you are saying is that you believe in some sort of existence after the grave.
What shit are you talking now CupCake…….. I am merely saying that you will not know when you are dead.... period.
Unless you know of some conscious way that your mind is going to tell you that you have died or are dead......by all means CupCake, explain that your loss of existence will be relayed to you in some way when you have died in your sleep...…..maybe your brain will wake you up a second before you die, to advise you that you are about to die ?
By the way, you yourself have said that you worship and serve a bully, and that that bully will ultimately determine your fate.
What person..... with any sound mind and working brain...... would want a bully to determine their ultimate fate?
You have serious issues CupCake, and I thought it was your addiction to running with your dogs to achieve an orgasm...…. Sjoh….. was I wrong on that.
What person..... with any sound mind and working brain...... would want a bully to determine their ultimate fate?
by all means CupCake, explain that your loss of existence will be relayed to you in some way when you have died in your sleep...…..maybe your brain will wake you up a second before you die, to advise you that you are about to die?
Are you there CupCake?
oh brother ... do I really feel like going through this simple little issue with a retard like you ... ?
It's like trying to teach a toddler not to shit in his shorts.
I just don't have the patience for it today ... so ... nah ... I'm really not in the mood to explain things to you, DumbAss ... chances are you won't grasp any explanation I offer anyway ... which means that I would have to dumb it down even further ... and probably again after that one zooms over the top of your head.
I'm starting to realize why the pizza counter assistant job you have is actually a good find for you ...
Lmao
That reply gave me a good chuckle...… hehe, thanks CupCake
Not surprising really, considering what you actually believe in life...….
Running is better than any sex...…..oh wait, and your saviour is also the guys that bullies you, but he is also the same guy that you trust implicitly, to decide your fate
LMFAO
DA, I don't think trust has anything to with it. I think he (CC) accepted things as they are (how he perceives them to be). No use in denying reality because you don't like the facts.
Luckily my views/hopes are a bit less negative than you two. Not too worried about the detail. Something in the line of Order vs Chaos. Law vs Lawlessness...with a bit of undeserved Grace thrown in. I think the largest problem is that most people have a warped idea of fairness...and the laws are not to their liking, so they reject everything. The most people also think a democracy is fair and lawful....not by a long shot.
I met up with the Devil a few weeks at a local nightclub. He also said God is a bully and always punishing people such as throwing him out of Heaven when he was an angel.
How I perceive them to be? That's an interesting thing to say?
What do you mean by that?
You seem to think that I have chosen to look at God negatively.
I see Him for what He is.
Jesus said "by the fruit of the tree, you shall know them" ... he then continued by saying "a good tree cannot bare bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bare good fruit" ... and so I look at God's fruit.
Take the general consensus regarding free will. We all have it ... right?
And yet when we look back at what transpired with Pharaoh during the days of Moses, we see that Pharaoh wasn't afforded the right to make a single decision on his own. His heart was hardened every time. It was decided for him ... and then he was punished for it and so were countless thousands of his people.
What does that tell you?
How about Judas and his supposed betrayal? Do you think he had a choice? And yet he too was punished for it ... punished for another persons deeds. Does that seem fair ... righteous?
Look at how He treated Job. It was a wager between two parties. His entire life was torn apart because of it. His entire family murdered. Does that sound like a loving Father?
or how about ... when He killed the servant for trying to prevent the Ark of the Covenant from falling off the wagon? Should the servant have let it fall ... let it smash to the ground and roll down the hillside? Was killing the servant justified?
I suspect that you may be one of the many millions out there, that looks at God as righteous ... as holy ... a gentle, kind ... a loving father ... because tht's how you were taught as a child.
The stories you've been told have mislead you, Draad. Oen you eyes and see for yourself ... or don't and keep living blissfully unaware of the truth.
Go look at Exodus 4:11 and see what it says there. Would a loving father do that? Would you? I know I wouldn't ... and if I did, I certainly wouldn't go strutting around, claiming to be righteous.
Ignorance is bliss they say ... and it's true. One sleeps better at night when you're unaware of the terrible truth.
The Bible prescribes the death penalty for the following activities, among others:
CC, we all perceive things differently. I didn't say you were wrong, I said I was hoping for a bit more positive outcome. I can't blame you for your views...I wonder about some things too, but who am I to judge? What is the bigger scheme of things and where do we fit in? We know too little to really have an opinion that counts for anything meaningful.
God works in mysterious ways. He let his own son be hanged for peoples future sins that had not even been committed yet. An insurance policy so to speak...
There is also no mention of Jesus since Easter over 2000 years ago. Is it possible that God sent Jesus to hell for everyone's sins? Maybe God should try hanging out on a cross to see what it is like, instead of letting Jesus take all the hardship... Or even being here when the Great Flood drowned most of life here on earth, without a boat ticket. Is God a good Christian, what ever that is?
DA, I don't think trust has anything to with it. I think he (CC) accepted things as they are (how he perceives them to be)
Db......How can trust have nothing at all to do with it, if you are allowing this "bully" to decide your own fate?
Surely you are trusting him to make the correct decision regarding your fate because you are leaving it completely in his hands ?
Free will is a cop out for when Christians can't justify what God has allowed evil men to do.
Spot on blue
As I said in my previous post.....where was this free will for all those millions of people that Hitler killed?
If he was just a still born baby at birth, it would have prevented the worst massacre in human existence, but no, Hitler's mom's free will and right to have a baby live through childbirth, took full preference over the millions of people who were killed by that baby boy, later in life.
That is one hell of a just and loving god you believe in......
Not too long ago in the states, a mother left her newborn baby in the car, and it died of severe heat stroke and exhaustion.
It was a simple slip of the mind, which resulted in devastating consequences for everyone involved...…. a sad...sad incident, which nobody would ever wish on any parent.
Is this god punishing this woman / mother, for something she did?
If so, why punish or kill the baby?
Or.... is this god punishing this baby for something it did?
Surely the baby has done nothing wrong because it has not had the conscious to think a bad thought, lie about anything, steal anything, or even say anything wrong, and ultimately does not even have the capacity to do any action at all, due to it being a new born baby, so it could not conceivably sin at all, by that age.
So, what happened here, and who did this god punish......did he punish the mother, by killing her baby, or did he punish the baby that does not have the capacity to sin?
This god could have very easily made the mother forget something in the car, that she urgently had to use at work, which would ultimately remind her and help her find her baby in the car, still alive.
Mmmmmmm this really is some just and loving god you worship
Fully agree with you blue
It's the same example you are using, just in a different context, but I still fully agree with what you posted
Essentially, why does a just and loving god allow such cancerous and murderous individuals to kill so many millions of innocent people.
Hindsight is a phenomenal bitch, but let's say we had the ability to 1 000% know for certain that the next baby that was left in a car to die, was without a doubt, going to grow up and become the next Hitler, and kill millions of people...……. I honestly don't think that many people would even bat an eyelid if they knew this up front, and that baby did perish at such a young age, to save the lives of millions of others later on in life.
This is pure make belief, and we obviously don't have that ability, so again, I ask, why are all these innocents being punished, whilst the evil bastards roam free..... some, like Mugabe, till over 90 years of age.
I still try and reason or understand how it could ever be perceived to be a just and loving god, because there is absolutely no ways that anyone can justify to me, that the interests of one individual like Hitler, surpasses the needs or the interests of the millions that he tortured and killed.
So you are angry at God for the evil deeds men are doing? So you are of opinion that a just God should intervene and prevent all evil? There are evil, so there can be no God? Or God is evil?
These are honest questions, I'm not trying to be argumentative.
Edit: The movie: "The Shack" explores some of these questions. It does not give the answers, but gives a different perspective. A bit long, but worth the watch...? A bit melodramatic.
Db, if god gives all people free will to choose their own path in life, to ensure that they receive their redemption from their god, and that they live to make sure that they end up in heaven...……. what happens to the people that did not, and never had the opportunity to exercise their use of that free will, that this loving god gave to everyone?
I have mentioned already, about babies dying a few months after being born, from some horrible cancer, suffering and enduring an excruciating slow and painful death before their parents eyes every day..
What evil deed has man done in this instance to make this father, mother and baby suffer through this?, did man create and cause the cancer to kill that baby?...….no he didn't, this god created this cancer, not man..... this god chose that particular baby to get this disease, not man...…..but why..... this baby also had zero free will, because if it was given the choice to be born without any disease, clearly it would choose not to.
As to your question, should god step in to intervene and prevent evil..... damn straight he should
I say this because the people on the receiving end of that very same evil you speak of, did not have the free choice or will that your god apparently gives to everyone, to prevent that very same evil, from affecting them and their loved ones...…... for instance, in Hitler's case...… Hitler executed those Jews, and in my opinion, used god's hands to do it, because god could have stopped it all from happening by just ensuring that Hitler never made it to an adult age.
So, you can't have free will only working from one direction here Db and say, oh, he was just the evil one here, what about the free will per individual to avoid that evil to begin with.
Well on free will. It's not free will to do what you want, it's free will to either serve God or not...or say that "there is no God" Like some do. It's a choice...and like you rightly say, some does not have the opportunity to make it, but then they did not reject God either. I don't know all the answers.
I ask again. Do you believe in a God, but don't like him, or do you not believe in a god?
I am not shy at all to say that I do not believe in a God
I cannot find any reason at all, why any God, or more specifically, this ever loving God, would ever let something that he personally created and loved so much that he sacrificed his own son...….. suffer unimaginable pain, through no fault of their own doing.
If all these individuals were given the opportunity to avoid having this fate befall them, and they then chose the wrong option or failed to heed the danger signs presented to them, then even that I could understand to a certain degree, but to just sit back and watch one single individual, that they themselves allowed to survive at birth.... massacre millions of complete families at will, and justify that by free will..... it's complete bollocks.
Since God apparently knows all, he would have known well beforehand what Hitler was capable of, so why allow it to happen?...….and Hitler is just one of thousands of examples I could use, but you get the picture
Even if the millions of people Hitler killed were all sinners, Hitler must have also been a sinner, so how does God give this one person the authority to decide the fate of those millions of people when they are all equally sinners in the eyes of God?
Lastly, how does a 6 month old baby decide if it believes in God, so that it can go to heaven instead of hell?
A just and ever loving God does not behave in this manner, in my humble opinion