Free the Leopards...

There is a possibility that had the west taken different actions and treated Russia differently that the present situation would not have occurred. Absolutely that is possible.

There is also the possibility that we might now be discussing the Russian invasion of the Baltic states or Poland with Ukraine already under Russian control. And in such a scenario I suspect we would have some on here saying well we need to give Russia more concessions.

Its impossible to say either way.

Did the west make mistakes that would cause the Russian's to mistrust them, absolutely they did.

Did the Russian's take actions that caused the West to mistrust them, absolutely they did.

A cease fire at this point might have the benefit of locking in the accomplishments of the Ukraine and the West and allowing the Ukrainians to return to their normal lives. Further hostilities could result in a far worse outcome.

Neither side has any interest in a ceasefire at the moment. Most western analysts think the Ukrainians have an edge at the moment and a ceasefire would benefit Russia more giving them time to regroup and re-organize for a future offensive. As for returning to a normal life, how normal a life could you return when their remains a very high possibility the Russian's could attack again, what about those who's homes have been destroyed, what if your home is now in Russian occupied territory or if your the one of thousands the Russian's have force able deported to Russia and can't return.

Yes further hostilities could result in a far worse outcome, or a far better outcome. Its a risk but from what I'm hearing and reading the vast majority of the Ukrainian people are prepared to take that risk.

The vision that came with the demise of the Soviet Union is still the right one…bringing Russia into the club. That could in turn have very positive benefits in the Chinese relationship. The West blew that in large part because of the institutional antipathy towards the Russians in the foreign service and the CIA.

Russia doesn't exactly help its reputation when it locks up all domestic political opposition,  props up a brutal regime in Syria, conducts assassinations in western countries with bio weapons and makes statements like Poland had it coming in World War II or Ukraine isn't a real state etc etc. Yes the west has made mistakes but Russian's actions haven't exactly made them be seen as a trustworthy partner.

The object of the exercise should still be to get a government in Russia that allows its people to take their natural place in the West. And finding the right exit in the Ukraine is absolutely crucial to that objective. Plum’s point is totally valid.

I don't see how Plum's suggestion of giving Putin what he wants gets us a government in Russia that allows its people to take their natural place in the West and that's assuming the Russia people as a whole want to be part of the west which is something of a open question. Actually the question of whether the Russian's considered themselves European is a long outstanding philosophical question Russia going back centuries.

Assassination is an option, but ideally, it was done by the Russians themselves.

It would be nice to just get rid of Putin using a drone, but anyone can see the potential risks - even if it was successful. What would be Post-Putin world be like if he was assassinated...would the old firm remain in place with a new Putin?  

How does a dead man push a nuclear button?

Seriously.

That would outdo JFK, who ironically it was "initially" believed that Russians may have been linked with Harvey Oswald.

The JFK assassination is a now a TV game, so the equivalent would be w ho killed Putin?  

I'd be very surprised if there aren't a bunch of high ranking Russians plotting to assassinate Putin . . . just as many of Hitler's trusted and powerful generals tried to kill him.

Hope they do a better job.

Duh….the point is an assassination attempt can never be guaranteed. And even if it succeeds the Kremlin is sufficiently opaque that its response to the assassination of its leader can’t be guaranteed. The possible down sides, a nuclear war, the creation of open season on every other national leader, the complete loss of moral authority in the world, an even more radical Russian leader.

Does any poster other than Blackboyo think that the West attempting to assassinate Putin is  a good idea?

How does a dead man push a nuclear button?

Seriously.

Haha With great difficulty I guess.

Woosh, man you are one dumb sucker September

I see it's very important for Moffie to believe that I maintain several identities on this board. That way, the sad old drunkard can claim all his humiliations are because it was two against one.

LMAO!

Oh look, the dancing monkey returns!

ButtPlug, I'm not sure if you're just being painfully childish again or if you're even more stupid than I thought, but I didn't say Bozo was the cause of the invasion, I said his belittling of NATO was one of the factors and something for which the west has to take some blame.

I realise this will disgust you all over again but I'm not a Putin apologist like you and your M aster. I think Putin is to blame for this mess . . . but he would have been encouraged by Bozo's anti-NATO tirades.

Out of interest, are you disputing that Bozo trashed NATO and threatened to pull out of NATO or are you saying that wasn't a factor at all?

Woosh, man you are one dumb sucker September

I must be, took a little over 20 years to finally accept that you're a sleaze and a User  not a friend.

"Out of interest, are you disputing that Bozo trashed NATO and threatened to pull out of NATO or are you saying that wasn't a factor at all?"

He tradhed some member countries for not giving their fair share of the funding...it worked and NATO is stronger for it.

Rooi, i have a plan...

For me, the only way out now is for the West to force Ukraine to the negotiating table.

No wonder you were so reluctant to post your diplomatic solutions. The west should give Putin what he wants and lean on Ukraine to do the same. Marvelous.

I can’t see Putin stopping for anything other than at least getting a part of what he wants.

He does appear to be in it for the long haul and I've no doubt he has no qualms about sacrificing hundreds of thousands more on both sides to get what he wants. However at some point enough people in his inner circle, the Kremlin or the Russian people might decide the prize Putin seeks isn't worth the cost and force him to stop or get rid of him.

Of course, there is the option of staying the current course and pumping more money and weapons to Ukraine, but some high ranking Russians close to Putin were recently saying that defeat in Ukraine will see nuclear war break out.

Outside of forcing Ukraine to negotiate, it’s like all other options are too risky and have good chances causing further escalation.

That's what Russia does when things are going against it. It presses the rattle nuclear saber button.

Forcing Ukraine to the negotiating table kicks the can down the road, in a few years times Russia will simply attack it again and want a bigger slice. Eventually it will make similar demands of other neighboring countries.

As you said earlier in the thread

Also, I'm going to guess that your next lazy move is going to be..."but if we keep giving him his way then where will it end?" Am I right? Is that what you were thinking? It is, isn't it?

Well in the run up to WW2 we had the path of the German army entering the Rhineland, then Czechoslovakia in which Hitler was appeased and given the Sudetenland, he then broke the agreement and took the rest of it and then finally we had Poland. And Hilter due to his past experiences with western politicians didn't think Poland would trigger war with France or Britain, he thought they would back down yet again.

Now in modern times we have Russia quite possibly use a false flag attack to trigger a war in Chechnya and take control of it, start a war in Georgia and seize part of it, size the Crimea from Ukraine and take de facto control over others part of Ukraine in 2014 and launch a full invasion of it in 2022 no doubt expecting a mild response from the west.

At some point you have to stand up to a bully. Appeasement doesn't work.

Also what sort of precedent would it set for China/Taiwan. China would be given the green light to invade. It doesn't matter if their conventional forces can be stopped by Taiwan/the wests conventional forces, they just need to issue threats of nuclear escalation and using your logic is too risky to do anything other than give them what they want.

As for escalation if Russia loses, if Russia did opt to use nukes it would be out of spite at losing not because its under threat from the west because there is absolutely zero chance either Ukraine or the west is going to attack and seize Russian territory, they just want Russia out of Ukraine and that's it.

And of course if they did use use nukes they know it would be the end of them. The Russian state can survive loosing in Ukraine (Putin regime might not), it can't survive a nuclear war. So that's a pretty good reason not to use nuclear weapons, self preservation.

He tradhed some member countries for not giving their fair share of the funding...it worked and NATO is stronger for it

It didn't work, those countries just reconfirmed previously given funding commitments and Trump went back to America claiming he got agreements from those countries to give more and his support base believed him. Wasn't actually true though.

"No wonder you were so reluctant to post your diplomatic solutions. The west should give Putin what he wants and lean on Ukraine to do the same. Marvelous."

Star, with you, the majority of the time, it's a case of having to spend energy telling you to stop misrepresenting what I'm saying. It's becoming tedious. 

"As for escalation if Russia loses, if Russia did opt to use nukes it would be out of spite at losing not because its under threat from the west because there is absolutely zero chance either Ukraine or the west is going to attack and seize Russian territory, they just want Russia out of Ukraine and that's it."

It doesn't matter. That's the point. Seriously, how many times do I have to explain to you that you are not negotiating with something that is rational? You're dealing with nuclear power...and they are threatening to use it. You have to find another way because at some point they are going to use it. You guys are acting like he's some pissed-off warlord on horseback that may burn down a village or two. Wake the hell up!

Anyway, let's assume they do stay the current course and Ukraine defeat Russia.

What are the odds of Russia letting off a spiteful nuke. Is it 10%, 30% or 60%?

Let's say there is a 1/10 chance. Is that a gamble you're willing to take?

And if they do let off a nuke, where to from there? Now Nato has to mobilise with an appropriate response. What are the odds of that sparking WW3 and ALL of our lives being screwed up for the rest of the time that we're here?

Look, I want a crushing Ukraine victory as much as the next guy, but that's very from a certainty and even if it does occur, it could spark something far worse.

Stop the virtue singing and deal with reality for a change. Try, just for a moment, to separate your self from your blind need to appear strong and virtuous and actually deal with what is in front of you.

I'm simply being realistic because apparently, it's necessary.

This guy makes some sense...

Star, with you, the majority of the time, it's a case of having to spend energy telling you to stop misrepresenting what I'm saying. It's becoming tedious.

Stop lying to yourself,. That's exactly what your suggesting and that's why you are were so reluctant to come out and say it. You think Ukraine should be sacrificed and its really all the west fault and all the concessions should come from the Ukraine/Western side.

It doesn't matter. That's the point. Seriously, how many times do I have to explain to you that you are not negotiating with something that is rational? You're dealing with nuclear power...and they are threatening to use it. You have to find another way because at some point they are going to use it. You guys are acting like he's some pissed-off warlord on horseback that may burn down a village or two. Wake the hell up!

Putin is rational. He's also mad in the sense that he thinks war is a perfectly acceptable extension of diplomacy in the 21st century and doesn't give a shit about human suffering. But he's rational in for example the way he's orchestrated events in the past. For example he's taken strong actions that have been to Russia's advantage in the past, he's pushed just hard enough to get something he wants without facing significant consequences. These were calculated gambles he took and payed off and each success encourage him to take another calculated gamble just as with Hitler. To him invading Ukraine was just another calculated gamble that this time it didn't pay off for him .  I'm sure Putin see's his actions as in the best interests of Russia, to increase Russia's power and greatness, but now that he's miscalculated is he really willing to see the thing he loves so much  be completely destroyed, and even if he was mad enough to do so would he be permitted to do so by his inner circle and the Kremlin.

Anyway, let's assume they do stay the current course and Ukraine defeat Russia.

What are the odds of Russia letting off a spiteful nuke. Is it 10%, 30% or 60%?

Let's say there is a 1/10 chance. Is that a gamble you're willing to take?

And if they do let off a nuke, where to from there? Now Nato has to mobilise with an appropriate response. What are the odds of that sparking WW3 and ALL of our lives being screwed up for the rest of the time that we're here?

Its not a 0% chance but its difficult to say what it is.

Stop the virtue singing and deal with reality for a change. Try, just for a moment, to separate your blind need to appear strong and virtuous and actually deal with what is in front of you.

I'm simply being realistic because apparently, it's necessary.

I am dealing with reality. You come on here and you castigate the west for not making the decisions you have made, like it was the most obvious and clear cut choice to make with no acknowledgement of the downsides of what your suggesting.

I don't think its virtue singing to point out what you're suggesting is  abandoning millions of people to be left under the control of brutal authoritarian dictator, giving a green light for him and others like him around the world to make demands and win concessions in the future via nuclear blackmail and encourage nuclear weapons proliferation around the world.

The reality of what you suggest is forever and a day the west will beholden to nuclear blackmail .

"I am dealing with reality. You come on here and you castigate the west for not making the decisions you have made, like it was the most obvious and clear cut choice to make with no acknowledgement of the downsides of what your suggesting."

Again with the misrepresentations.

You're quickly becoming a waste of time.

ButtPlug is too stupid to know he's making a complete dick of himself again.

First lesson for the dancing monkey . . . no-one has to misrepresent you to make you look stupid. You do a great job all by yourself.

Here’s one tiny example…i said that Russia and Putin should be “shown respect”. But you turn that into “Putin” should be respected.

See the difference? See the sleeze? Of course you do.

I’m not sure how long you’d like to keep playing this game for?

Again, you do it because you have to…and if you have to do it…i think we know what that means.

What leads me to believe what I said in the previous paragraph is just me looking at the overall content of your posts and looking at where you place the emphasis on who is to blame.

How you can cry sleeze and accuse me of playing games all you want. I call it as I see. Whether you think Putin/Russia should be respected out of necessity to avoid a nuclear war or that Putin/Russia genuinely deserve the right to respect is irrelevant, the consequence of giving them that respect (i.e giving into their demands) is the same, millions of people will lose their freedom and authoritarian regimes around the world will see they can get what they want through nuclear blackmail.

So a simple question….tell us Anger, do you really support a Western Assassination attempt on Putin.  Try to give us a simple answer.

Actually, it is important because it goes directly to argument that i’m making. And you know that.

I’m very far from anti West.

I’m in full support of the West, and i see it as superior in most aspects. You’re mistaking, perhaps intentionally yet again, my disappointment in their diplomatic failures for an anti-west stance.

And the argument I'm making is that the diplomatic solution you are proposing regardless of how you arrived at it is not consequence free. Whats more you know that, its the reason you where so reluctant to define what your diplomatic solution was after so stridently advocating for it.

I said i think they can do better. I’m not saying that i think Russia can do better because i don’t expect better from Putin’s Russia. 

Maybe the west could of done better but I'm extremely dubious appeasement was it. And I don't think we should be expected to tolerate aggression just because its in the nature of the Putin regime. Do we tolerate violent sex offenders just because its in their nature?

Just a little way up on this thread i mentioned that i fully understand Ukraine’s mistrust and dislike of Russia. I went on to say that Russia has done some some of the worst things imaginable.

…but i guess that unless there is some three page disclaimer, it would leave a dishonest actor such as yourself, room to muddy the water.

I'm sorry but this is all just weasel words. Your posts are here for everyone to read.

So a simple question….tell us Anger, do you really support a Western Assassination attempt on Putin.  Try to give us a simple answer.

No problem. No I don't support a Western assassination attempt on Putin and I actually said that before in another thread as well.

"And the argument I'm making is that the diplomatic solution you are proposing regardless of how you arrived at it is not consequence-free."

Ah, thanks for enlightening me. Here I was thinking that I had the perfect solution.

Obviously, it's not consequence-free. I don't recall saying that it was. But it doesn't have to be consequence-free to be better than simply ending all thoughts on this matter at "Putin is evil and crazy".

Ah, thanks for enlightening me. Here I was thinking that I had the perfect solution.

Obviously, it's not consequence-free. I don't recall saying that it was. But it doesn't have to be consequence-free to be better than simply ending all thoughts on this matter at "Putin is evil and crazy".

Well the strident nature of your criticism of the west in previous posts comes across as if your making a point that is obviously true. As in giving into Putin/Russian demands was the only sensible choice. its fine if you want to make the argument for appeasement but you have to acknowledge doing so carries some very significant downsides. Its why you tried to avoid answering the question for so long.

I do think Putin is evil, but he is a rational actor. But your kinda undermining your own argument here, are you saying Putin is not crazy? Because if your saying that if he's not crazy and is a rational person its very unlikely for him to use nuclear weapons. It would mean his own end and the end of the thing he loves the most Russia. If you do think he's evil and crazy why are you criticizing others who think that and why do you assume that's there only thought on the matter.

Ok, let me actually call you out on one these misrepresentations.

Here is the definition of strident - The meaning of STRIDENT is characterized by harsh, insistent, and discordant sound; also : commanding attention by a loud or obtrusive quality.

Ok, now…

Cut and past my said strident criticism of the West.

…or admit that you simply can’t help yourself when it comes misrepresenting things to strengthen your argument.

No problem.

"Barely out of summer, with many still on late summer holidays in Europe, and markets are rattled as all hell.

Europe finds itself in a horrible position today.

Their idiotic leaders brought them to the brink via purely insane Covid policies and printing of money on a scale that baffles.

Many, including myself, said right at the outset that the cure should NEVER result in worse outcomes than the disease.

We saw the worst of the disease almost two years ago. The worst of the cure is still is still in full force and getting worse.

Africa barely paid attention to Covid and they came out fine at the end.

Russia ceased upon the opportunity to invade Ukraine, knowing that Europe couldn’t afford to resist Russia’s ambitions for too long. The higher inflation went, the more certain Putin must have been about achieving his goals in Ukraine.

One would think that the eggheads at the EU could have foreseen that a weak EU, without reliable back-up energy and being dependant on Russia, could have foreseen this. They get the big bucks but I’m guessing that nobody at NATO could have seen this coming, right?

The moment Russia invaded Ukraine, Putin was blamed for inflation, despite the majority of inflation having built up long before anybody thought or knew Russia was heading into Ukraine. Strange how little to none of the news media highlighted this obvious falsehood. Stranger how so many ran, and continue to run with, this obvious lie.

Irresponsible money printing, poor strategising, lies, deception, erosion of freedom and sky rocketing inflation.

That’s the story of EU leadership today.

But don’t worry…right…because Europe will “cope”.

Ukraine’s Queen was comfortable sniping form a distance but one too many careless moves is about to see her remove herself from the board. Many of her pawns have already fallen to expose the meat of her army.

Let’s see how long before the same genial EU leadership force Ukraine to the Russian negotiating table."

Not me, if it does happen I bloody hope it's from the Russians.

Rather just see the prick overthrown and spend the rest of his life in a prison cell and all the money siezed and given to the families of those he is responsible for the death of.

They all do support the warmongering of the media and want t use the war to enhance the leftwing agenda they strive to see happening turning the world into a dictatorship drive of the media owners.     Any opposition to their agenda must be destroyed. and Russia is a major headache fpr them.            

We are always right and the other side is always wrong...