FIXTURESNo upcoming fixtures — check back soon.
FORUM / MIKES GRIPES /  No Deal Brexit could reduce UK economy by 25% for the immediate future

No Deal Brexit could reduce UK economy by 25% for the immediate future

Started by sharkbok121 REPLIES2,582 VIEWS· 25 Mar 2019, 14:20
SHAREXFACEBOOKWHATSAPPTELEGRAMREDDITLINKEDIN
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
27 Mar 2019, 11:53
#41
27 Mar 2019, 11:53#41

SB

What the hell does the EU needs an army for then?  Do the clowns running the EU actually knows what they want the army for?    If they do - and I believe they do - it would not be for the high-minded reasons they advertised publicly. 

You dealt with rugby issues - the fact is Brexit is a world wide issue affecting all of us - whether we live in Europe or anywhere else. 

I do see protestors in the streets at present - but as people's standards of living keep declining as it did all over Europe during the past two decades - things are going to get much worse than it is at present and may get out of control sooner rather than later.        

CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
27 Mar 2019, 12:13
#42
27 Mar 2019, 12:13#42
Not quite accurate Beeno. The Remain MPs were clearly in the Remain camp during the campaign. There were many more MOs in the Remain campaign than there were in the Leave campaign. The big difference was in the fact that the Leave campaign had many academics and experts and they were in touch with what their support base. The Remain camp, on the other hand, mainly had the EU and politicians in their side. We know, even more so now, just how out of touch they were and, still are, when it comes to knowing what their base really want. If you look closely, you’ll see that most of the hardline (from the beginning) Brexiteer politicians were those that were very active in their constituencies. Very few of them were even frontbenchers in their parties. I can only, off the top of my head, think of Michael Gove in the Tories, who was the Secretary for Education, IIRC. I don’t think that there was a single Labour frontbencher in the Leave campaign.
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
27 Mar 2019, 12:26
#43
27 Mar 2019, 12:26#43

Windpomp didn't you see the percentages of Labour and Tory MP who campaigned on leave that i posted . Solid majority were Leave but were really remainers

Bit like in the states where they have campl ained and talked about borders security and immigration reform but never did it

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
27 Mar 2019, 14:18
#44
27 Mar 2019, 14:18#44

SB

There was a huge outcry when Macron used the military to guard certain places from the yellow vest protesters.   

From there to using the military against protestors is a very small step.  

I may be reading the situation wrong - but from a distance it seems that things are not as good as the press wants us to believe,

CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
27 Mar 2019, 14:37
#45
27 Mar 2019, 14:37#45
“Posted by: Beeno1 (27095 posts)Mar 27, 2019, 12:26

Windpomp didn't you see the percentages of Labour and Tory MP who campaigned on leave that i posted . Solid majority were Leave but were really remainers”

Bull twang. 
How MPs voted in the EU referendum

Most members of the House of Commons are believed to have voted Remain in the EU referendum.

According to a survey of all 650 MPs carried out by the Press Association ahead of the referendum on June 23:

:: 480 MPs said they would be voting Remain, including 184 Conservatives

:: 159 MPs said they would be voting Leave, including 139 Conservatives

:: 11 MPs were undeclared, including four Conservatives

This gives Remain a notional Commons majority of at least 310.







BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
27 Mar 2019, 15:22
#46
27 Mar 2019, 15:22#46

windpomp what v am saying vs although these snakes campaigned as Leavers they were actually remainers. The stats i quoted were based on how these guys campaigned.

The real choice before Parliament is leave ort remain. May's deal is the worst option as vn effect they remain but have no voice the perfect outcome for the open borders globalist snakes.

However it is only a matter of time before these globalist are swept out of power. They will get a bloody noze come May!

Must say sharkbokkve contues to impress as to the extent of his ignorance!

Looks oaks its as plain as daylight what the globalists want. Merkel has said openly European nations must be prepared to give up more of their Sovereignty. The plan is for the sovereign nations states of Europe to disappear. Their customs values and traditions are to be crushed as they lead to a free democratic nation state. Population replacement helps to achieve this. As Soros famously said Western Civilization must be destroyed before the NWO can be established AND The USA is the biggest impediment to the establish of the NWO. A world without borders, a one world government.

Anybody know that Speaker Bercow acknowledged yesterday that the EU laws supersede the laws of the UK Parliament. Mays deal does not take the UK out of the customs Union. EU laws will still take preference to UK parliament laws and the UK will NOT be allowed to make its own trade treaty. They will be law takers and will have no vote in the EU Parliament. That is what the Remainer and traitor PM May has negotiated. Not to mention the continued free movement of people into the EU. The destruction of the country.

The guy who has been right all along, years ago in fact was Nigel F when he accused Brussels of wanting a United Sates of Europe and the abolishment of the European nation states he was mocked by these liars as being a conspiracy theorist. Ditto when he accused the EU of wanting an European Army. Now they themselves have openly admitted their agenda! Yet this dumbass sharkbokkie says its a conspiracy theory. i have posted what EU leaders have said on this subject but the ignorant twit continues with astounding his ignorance. Wake up you hopeless dope. Time you got yourself informed about matters and ceased being an ignoramus of note. Hahahahhahahahahaha


MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
27 Mar 2019, 16:21
#47
27 Mar 2019, 16:21#47
Those leave/remain stats for MPs are staggering, I never realized it was one sided.
SH
sharkbokCaptain23,209 posts
27 Mar 2019, 16:22
#48
27 Mar 2019, 16:22#48
The United States of America (USA) used to be separate colony states of European countries (e.g. France, Britain etc).
When they merged into one country of 50+ states, they became the "United" States. Are the Americans now part of the globalist conspiracy? 

Beeno your simplistic world view is to see everything as part of your approved dogma, then everything else is part of the devil's conspiracy...
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
27 Mar 2019, 17:32
#49
27 Mar 2019, 17:32#49

Moz,

If you think those stats are staggering, try these. They confirm what I said in an earlier post about where the voters have voted compared to the MPs:


CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
27 Mar 2019, 17:45
#50
27 Mar 2019, 17:45#50
“The United States of America (USA) used to be separate colony states of European countries (e.g. France, Britain etc).”
Uhmm Nope. The United States were a group of states under British rule. They, as a group, declared independence from British rule following a civil war. They formed an independent sovereign republic, no longer under the rule of the British Crown. They became a sovereign independent country at that moment and has been for almost 250 years. 
The EU is a group of sovereign independent countries who group together to, initially, form an economic union. It eventually expanded into the circus it is today. The British have now chosen to end their close knit subordination to what the union has become. 
There is a slight but major difference. 
SH
sharkbokCaptain23,209 posts
27 Mar 2019, 18:09
#51
27 Mar 2019, 18:09#51

So now Christopher Columbus is British? Britain may have taken ownership of many of the states, but like Africa much of the place were European colonies. (A bit like how the Dutch Colonized South Africa- only for Britain to take over ownership). 

Most of the indigenous population was wiped out. According to the below article, there were more red Indians in America than Europeans in Europe at the time. If their was ever a case of Globalisation, it was European countries colonizing other continents. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_colonization_of_the_Americas

As the sponsor of Christopher Columbus's voyagesSpain was the first European power to settle and colonize the largest areas, from North America and the Caribbean to the southern tip of South America.

Later, the areas that are today CaliforniaArizonaNew MexicoColoradoTexasMissouriLouisiana, and Alabama were taken over by other conquistadors, such as Hernando de SotoFrancisco Vázquez de Coronado, and Álvar Núñez Cabeza de Vaca. Farther to the south, Francisco Pizarro conquered the Inca Empire during the 1530s. 

Spanish losses were 22 killed and 148 wounded. The Spaniards claimed that 2,500 Indians died. If true, Mabila was the bloodiest battle ever fought between red men and white in the present-day United States.[3] 

Eventually, most of the Western Hemisphere came under the control of Western European governments, leading to changes to its landscape, population, and plant and animal life.

Roman Catholics were the first major religious group to immigrate to the New World, as settlers in the colonies of Portugal and Spain (and later, France) belonged to that faith. English and Dutch colonies, on the other hand, tended to be more religiously diverse. Settlers to these colonies included Anglicans, Dutch Calvinists, English Puritans and other nonconformistsEnglish Catholics, Scottish Presbyterians, French Huguenots, German and Swedish Lutherans, as well as JewsQuakersMennonitesAmish, and Moravians.[24]


List of European colonies in the Americas[edit]

Puerto Plata, Dominican Republic. Founded in 1502, the city is the oldest continuously-inhabited European settlement in the New World.Cumaná, Venezuela. Founded in 1510, it is the oldest continuously-inhabited European city in the continental Americas.

English and (after 1707) British[edit]

See also: § Scottish colonization of the AmericasFurther information: List of Hudson's Bay Company trading posts

Courland (indirectly part of Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth)[edit]

Danish[edit]

Dutch[edit]

French[edit]

Further information: List of French forts in North America
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
27 Mar 2019, 19:19
#52
27 Mar 2019, 19:19#52
No Columbus wasn't British......nor was he American. The closest he got to the USA was Cuba. As for the decimation of the Indians, the vast majority of that was due to disease for which Indians had no immunity. One of history's great tragedies.
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
27 Mar 2019, 19:38
#53
27 Mar 2019, 19:38#53

Snarkbok an even bigger troll than the Don? Must be, he can't be this ignorant.

DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
27 Mar 2019, 19:44
#54
27 Mar 2019, 19:44#54

Vlag, the US Civil War was almost a century after their independence from The Crown,...and initially there were only 13 states or colonies, I think? 

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
27 Mar 2019, 19:47
#55
27 Mar 2019, 19:47#55

I w2ish you would quote the history of Europe the way you quote the history of  the Americas.   That would be more pertinent to the topic we are discussing above.    The development of the USA like all other countries in the Americas had to do with colonialism  - which is not the same topic that is anywhere near the present globalist concept,   The colonialists  want colonies to be exploited to enrich the mother countries,   They had very little in common with the present scenario where the previous colonialists are in fact involved. ,   

Fact is that there were obviously citizens of the colonial powers that went along as residents in the colonies and those people gradually increased - but fact is that they lost virtually all contact with their countries of origin,   By 1800 this was very clear - the USA was independent and would soon be followed by the Spanish American states,    Much of the histories of colonies are actually very similar - the new residents got more and more independent in thinking and moved further and away from established authorties. thus moving into the areas inhabited by native Americans.   It happened in both the American continents and Southern Africa. 

In time the cultures of the residents clashed and the stronger beat the weaker,    Take for  instance Mexico - the main areas of Spanish influence were on the coast and inland to Mexico City.    However some of their residents moved and established fairly independent settlements in what is today Texas, New Mexico and California.   The cultural; clash left the  weaker latino's to lose control.    So lets summarize it  colonialism lead to migration of people from Europe into some countries and ultimately these colonies became independent countries,

What the globalists want to do is a 20th century concept started in 1918 with the Peace of Versailles.   It was described by one of the leading Globalists - General Smuts as  Holism.   Originally it was  an idea for the winning countries to work together to protect their own interests.    From there it developed into the ideas of the Communists to conquer the world by annexing all states where they could gain power.   There ideals were a world Government under the Communist regime.   Hitler had the same ideals but under the Germans,   Both countries  had the same socio-political systems in place and in the end it lead to war.   

The situation in fact is that the present Globalists have taken over the ideas of the Communists and Nazis aimed  at a World Government by the moneyed elite.   These people have no regard for the less-fortunate people of their countries - what they want is total control, but they have a problem.   The ordinary residents may become less obedient and their labour more expensive - so the ideal is to destroy the culture of individual countries - flood the countries with migrants to take over lower paid jobs and to use those migrants to support them against the local residents in countries.

Fact is their is no real difference between Stalin, Hitler and the present crowd running the EU,  There policies are similar and in many ways more anti their own people than their predecessors   were.    You can go through their backgrounds they are all theoretical leftists with socialism  (the concept of both Stalin. Hitler and Mussolini) being used to undermine the people in individual countries and establish a world dictatorship

People who  trust that lot must have their heads read - they are the Hitlers and Stalins of the 21st Century - but they cannot exactly use the methods of their predecessors - they have to be more subtle - but the end result will inevitably be the same.   A Dictatorship of the Elite ruling the world with an iron grip.                         

CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
27 Mar 2019, 19:48
#56
27 Mar 2019, 19:48#56
“With the British colonization of Georgia in 1732, the 13 colonies that would become the United States of America were established.[89] All had local governments with elections open to most free men, with a growing devotion to the ancient rights of Englishmen and a sense of self-government stimulating support for republicanism.[90] With extremely high birth rates, low death rates, and steady settlement, the colonial population grew rapidly. Relatively small Native American populations were eclipsed.[91] The Christian revivalist movement of the 1730s and 1740s known as the Great Awakening fueled interest in both religion and religious liberty.[92]” ...... and then....... “The American Revolutionary War was the first successful colonial war of independence against a European power. Americans had developed an ideology of "republicanism" asserting that government rested on the will of the people as expressed in their local legislatures. They demanded their rights as Englishmen and "no taxation without representation". The British insisted on administering the empire through Parliament, and the conflict escalated into war.[114]” “The Second Continental Congress unanimously adopted the Declaration of Independence on July 4, which recognized, in a long preamble, that all men are created equal and endowed by their Creator with unalienable rights and that those rights were not being protected by Great Britain, and declared, in the words of the resolution, that the thirteen United Colonies formed an independent nation and had no further allegiance to the British crown. The fourth day of July is celebrated annually as Independence Day.[115] The Second Continental Congress declared on September 9 "where, heretofore, the words 'United Colonies' have been used, the stile be altered for the future to the 'United States' ".[116] In 1777, the Articles of Confederation established a weak government that operated until 1789.[115]”
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
27 Mar 2019, 20:01
#57
27 Mar 2019, 20:01#57

And Snark, the Dutch founded Manhatten before they did Cape Town.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
27 Mar 2019, 20:12
#58
27 Mar 2019, 20:12#58

Ceradyne

I was very impressed by the figures provided above.   What is clear is that the members of Parliament has lost contact with the people they are supposed to represent,   

That could be deadly for the Main Political Parties in the UK.   It is a trend that has developed already in countries like Poland, Italy, France, Austria, Hungary and even the Netherlands and Spain.   

It has led to weak coalition Governments in virtually all countries in Europe.  There is nothing the EU elite  fear more than nationalism which came through new political parties  taking over Governments in Europe.  The Brussels  elite has had their roots in leftwing  and socialist parties in their home countries,   Some of them were Prime Minsters  in their home countries kicked out by opposition groups.   

All of the countries has the same problem - politicians losing contact with their own people.   Is the UK going the same way?   .         

SH
sharkbokCaptain23,209 posts
27 Mar 2019, 20:54
#59
27 Mar 2019, 20:54#59

This was the expansion of Christianity around the world. It was God's will after all. Part of the program was the missionaries who spread the word of God, while the natives were shafted out of their land. 

Or the expansion of Western Capitalism

Or one ring to rule them all - Saroman

DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
27 Mar 2019, 21:11
#60
27 Mar 2019, 21:11#60

Snark, why don't you sell everything you have and give it to some native somewhere.

 You sound like a limousine-liberal...it's fine to share someone else's wealth with the plebs, as long as "they" leave your stuff be...and while you're at it, move to a country that is traditionally non-Christian and see how long they tolerate your secularism.  P!ss on Christianity all you like, none of the other alternatives has a workable alternative...well it depends on your idea of "workable".

SH
sharkbokCaptain23,209 posts
27 Mar 2019, 21:15
#61
27 Mar 2019, 21:15#61

The point is you lot are always banging on about Globalism, and the Muslim world taking over, and how just about everyone else is actually allie s to Jihad,  people are. The Christians have done more. 

It is the 21st century, much of Western Europe are not Christian anymore. So I do live in a non-Christian place. Barely anyone goes to Church here.

Big corporations like Amazon and Google are probably bigger threats to globalisation than these mystical organisations that exist in your shadows. 

If something fits your domga it is fine, but if it does not- then it is globalism. Objectivity please, is that too much to ask?



DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
27 Mar 2019, 21:28
#62
27 Mar 2019, 21:28#62

You are living in the remnants of Christian society,  but as the borders are broken down, your orderly life will turn into chaos more and more. Secularism has taken over the previous Christian countries and we are worse for it. Ask anyone who grew up in the 70's or 80's about life then and now. There is a balance you seem to be unaware of.

Look at the alternatives in recent history. It's easey. 

Communist Russia,  China, Korea (difference betwen N and S) India, the Middle East, USA, Canada, Europe and South America. Japan, pre WW2 and now.

SH
sharkbokCaptain23,209 posts
27 Mar 2019, 21:48
#63
27 Mar 2019, 21:48#63
I believe the Western world has been better for a few reasons
1. Less religious, at least in the modern era2. Democratic history.3. Capitalism
Religion is only a small part in this, and being less religious may be more of a contribution than religion itself
My views are moderate.  However - If I am dealing with far right wing, I am trying to be objective and in doing so, it seems to far right that it is extreme,
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
27 Mar 2019, 22:47
#64
27 Mar 2019, 22:47#64

What you seem to miss is that pure Christianity was the breeding ground for Capitalism and Democracy like we know it. The West conquered the Earth, but we are giving it away again as a result of our misplaced sense of fairness...not always survival of the fittest,  you've got to be ruthless too.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
28 Mar 2019, 09:43
#65
28 Mar 2019, 09:43#65

The problem of religion has been debated on this site endlessly.   On the one side there are  those supporting Christianity - on the second side there are those supporting the Islamic faith.   The anti-religion members criticizes Christianity - but never Islamism.   What they should do if they are anti-religion do they in fact support the Islamic religion and of course anti-religious leaders like Lenin, Stalin, Mao Zedong and Hitler as being the real deal.

They apparently support the social and political policies of the Communists and Nazi's - both being based on the principles of socialism.   If one goes back thousands of years in history- Communism had its base on the social and economic circumstances pertaining to the Jewish practices more than 2 thousand years ago and still found in Israel today -  the purist form of Communism is found on the Kibbutz farming system in Israel.

So why keep arguing about religion when religion is not at present the deciding factor in politics as it used to be for thousands  of years - whether was practiced by ALL religions.   There were no doubt leaders who abused religion as a basis to enhance their own personal interests - there were endless wars and repression in the name of religion.   All religions are guilty of doing the unspeakable crimes and it is ongoing even in the 21st century.   Although it is less noticeable amongst the Christians at present - it is still common in Muslim countries,  

Whether people like it or not Christianity had an impact on culture and development of present nations over the last thousand years,   It became the basis of the present democratic system ad personal freedom of people - without Christianity it would not have happened.

What I condemn outright is fanaticism on all sides.   It looks like this forum is used by fanatic Christians and fanatic Atheists to fight their personal battles.   Does religion still influence major developments in the world today?   In the so-called Christian orientated Countries it does not directly  - in the Islamic countries it does,

I think fanatics on both sides are in fact attacking the idea of freedom of expression, believes and practices  and that is truly an amazing situation  - are they living in the modern world or the world a thousand years ago?     People should be allowed to live the life they want to without being attacked by fanatics on all sides.    

I want to make a plea that religious discussion on the site stop - since it actually discredit members  on all sides. 

        

 

CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
28 Mar 2019, 10:36
#66
28 Mar 2019, 10:36#66
Uhmmm, Mike I think, in saying that “On the one side there are those supporting Christianity - on the second side there are those supporting the Islamic faith” you are missing the ball totally. There are, IMO, quite a few groupings on this site when it comes to religion. -Christians who are anti Muslim. -Christians who are tolerant of Muslims and/or Christians who are tolerant of the Muslim faith. (NOTE: There is a difference between being tolerant of Muslims and being tolerant of the Muslim faith.) - Agnostics. -Atheists. I do not agree that there should be no discussion/debate on religion. What I do not like is when it changes from discussion and debate into ugly fights and name calling like the sports discussions and debate. Religion is way more serious and with way more consequences than sport which is, after all, just a game. Same with politics.
SH
sharkbokCaptain23,209 posts
28 Mar 2019, 10:55
#67
28 Mar 2019, 10:55#67
I have never seen anyone support radical Islam on this website. Certainly not Jihad etc. To make up lies like this, is pathetic and just being a self-righteous praat that will make stuff up, just to support your argument. 
I have seen people show tolerance of Islam, even if Islam (and certainly not radicals) does not do the same. Tolerance has been shown by Christians and non-Christians. This is also democratic values. 
For non-religious people, the right-wing fantastic Christian is the cut from the same cloth as the radical Muslims. Both fanatically believe their religion is the only right way. These are primitive barbaric people with limited morals or values. They think they are God's chosen people. 
If there were Islamic posters that were fanatics posting on this website, the criticism would be worse than the fanatical Christians. 
I don't recall anyone ever supporting Communism on this website- or far right wing dictators like Hitler and Stalin. However, some South Africans did support Hitler in World war two. (ages ago). Dictators are far right wing people, regardless of what their religion or non-religion or political ideology is. 
You will find that most threads are not talking about religion, and suddenly Beeno hijacks the thread with his far right wing garbage calling everyone a globalist scumbag. If it was a Muslim doing the same thing, the criticism would be the same or worse.
Clevermike, grouping people that are not Christian religious fanatics with Islam, is the same as Beeno. You are right and everyone else is wrong...... You are creating 2 sides - the Good and the Bad. Just like Beeno. Did you also support the madman in Christchurch a few weeks ago like Beeno ? 





CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
28 Mar 2019, 12:49
#68
28 Mar 2019, 12:49#68

Listen I made one mistake on what I wrote above - I did not clearly spelt out what I meant and suddenly it became the core of the discussions.    What I meant is I have seen attacks on Christianity - but never seen any criticism by the attackers doing the same insofar as Islamism is concerned - fact is they were entirely silent on that score.

The other thing that is totally wrong is associating dictators like Hitler and Stalin as right wing - while their policies as socialists are  in fact totally in accord with what the present Socialists - who regards the same policies as their "bible" - regard as being left-wing.   You only have to  look at the present Cuba and Venezuela how that propaganda applies.  They are claimed as being left-wing - but they are not any different from their predecessors - eg  Stalin and co - insofar as socialism is concerned,   

It is a farce which is spread by the left-wing socialists.   Their political and socialist kith and kin becomes right wing in their propaganda book and the same applies to moderate people not supporting their ideas.   This is propaganda of the worst kind - it boils down to deception.   You can ask the Labour Party leader whether he was not a Communist Party sympathizer and he even went to Russia for that purpose.   Now everyone is made to believe that the Labour Party is a left-wing Party but for convenience sake the Communists are suddenly rightwingers,  

I generally am not really sympathetic when it comes to politicians and the crazy media system  supporting them.   They lie, they cheat and are there for their own personal benefit  - the only question being which politicians are the biggest liars and who succeed to spread falsehoods the  better.   At times their lies hits back and they are exposed for what they really are.   

I have on record that I did not support Trump when writing on site - I still do not like him.   However, the media frenzy of the past two years was total fraud and misrepresentation and even non-partial people tend to sympathize  with Trump.    

Where I differ from  people I base my observations  on the historic background and on what is happening at present in Europe that could and do effect the present political tendencies,   I do not trust the EU Leadership in particular bearing in mind their past history and background in politics before them becoming involved in the EU,   I may be regarded as radial about that viewpoint  - but it relates entirely to my total dislike of politico's - past and present. 

Bear in mind what the Greek philosophers wrote  as a concept of democracy as a political foundation.   The Greek philosophers criticized the system because it was open to manipulation by scoundrels.   Is that not still the case in the 21st century?       .           

        

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
28 Mar 2019, 12:49
#69
28 Mar 2019, 12:49#69

Listen I made one mistake on what I wrote above - I did not clearly spelt out what I meant and suddenly it became the core of the discussions.    What I meant is I have seen attacks on Christianity - but never seen any criticism by the attackers doing the same insofar as Islamism is concerned - fact is they were entirely silent on that score.

The other thing that is totally wrong is associating dictators like Hitler and Stalin as right wing - while their policies as socialists are  in fact totally in accord with what the present Socialists - who regards the same policies as their "bible" - regard as being left-wing.   You only have to  look at the present Cuba and Venezuela how that propaganda applies.  They are claimed as being left-wing - but they are not any different from their predecessors - eg  Stalin and co - insofar as socialism is concerned,   

It is a farce which is spread by the left-wing socialists.   Their political and socialist kith and kin becomes right wing in their propaganda book and the same applies to moderate people not supporting their ideas.   This is propaganda of the worst kind - it boils down to deception.   You can ask the Labour Party leader whether he was not a Communist Party sympathizer and he even went to Russia for that purpose.   Now everyone is made to believe that the Labour Party is a left-wing Party but for convenience sake the Communists are suddenly rightwingers,  

I generally am not really sympathetic when it comes to politicians and the crazy media system  supporting them.   They lie, they cheat and are there for their own personal benefit  - the only question being which politicians are the biggest liars and who succeed to spread falsehoods the  better.   At times their lies hits back and they are exposed for what they really are.   

I have on record that I did not support Trump when writing on site - I still do not like him.   However, the media frenzy of the past two years was total fraud and misrepresentation and even non-partial people tend to sympathize  with Trump.    

Where I differ from  people I base my observations  on the historic background and on what is happening at present in Europe that could and do effect the present political tendencies,   I do not trust the EU Leadership in particular bearing in mind their past history and background in politics before them becoming involved in the EU,   I may be regarded as radial about that viewpoint  - but it relates entirely to my total dislike of politico's - past and present. 

Bear in mind what the Greek philosophers wrote  as a concept of democracy as a political foundation.   The Greek philosophers criticized the system because it was open to manipulation by scoundrels.   Is that not still the case in the 21st century?       .           

        

CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
28 Mar 2019, 12:58
#70
28 Mar 2019, 12:58#70
@Sharkbok, “I have never seen anyone support radical Islam on this website. Certainly not Jihad etc.” Correct. That is why I have not mentioned it. I said: “... quite a few groupings on this site when it comes to religion.” Note that I said “...on this site...” And then I named them: “-Christians.....etc etc”.
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
28 Mar 2019, 13:14
#71
28 Mar 2019, 13:14#71

Beeno did not support the CC madman. Far from it.

And you are one to talk about "grouping people" and "hate speach", LMAO. You do it all the time.

SH
sharkbokCaptain23,209 posts
28 Mar 2019, 13:48
#72
28 Mar 2019, 13:48#72
If Beeno will unequivocally state he does not agree with it, I will accept that. 
Draad, you are Beeno's Serville Gimp. He can speak for himself
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
28 Mar 2019, 14:18
#73
28 Mar 2019, 14:18#73

SB

Read what I wrote and read it carefully.   The worst dictators in the world ever were all left-wing socialists whether you like it or not.   It is madness to say all dictators are rightwingers when their polies were left-wing in every way possible.    

Stalin was beloved by leftwingers in the 1930's and 1940"s.   Roosevelt loved him and sold out the whole of Eastern Europe in the process and his wife did even more damage.   Communism was supported all out before they took over Russia by American Capitalists financially virtually all through the  20th century and it only stopped when Reagan, Thatcher and Kohl put a stop to it leading to the collapse of the Communist Governments in Eastern Europe.   What you wrote about the Communist dictators suddenly becoming right-wingers  is the biggest BS I have ever read coming from a grown-up and it certainly show how perceptive you are to leftist media fibs.   Factual history does not support that BS at all.

I have expressed regret as to what happened in Christchurch and has indicated repeatedly that I have many Muslim friends whom I regard highly and appreciate very much.   If that sound like I am an anti-Muslim fanatic you must be kidding.   

One cannot discuss history and politics with a person like you who are not at all neutral - believing he is a moderate when in fact is he is a rabid socialist.  When it is pointed out that rabid socialists turned out to be the worst dictators in the history of mankind - they suddenly become right-wingers.   LMAO  

Sorry - you land yourself in the twang - it is better to be moderate and based your life on that.   See both sides of the story - distrust all politicians - and see what they really want to do based on what actually happened in history when their shenanigans results in wars and oppression. 

That is why I thought both Bush and Blair were atrocious liars causing the Iraq war and all that which followed.   By the way is Blair also a right-winger?  Think not - he is a lying left-winger  

.            

CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
28 Mar 2019, 14:36
#74
28 Mar 2019, 14:36#74

Actually, Bush’ big sin was not that he lied to the Americans. His sin was that he believed his Intel Community. Guess who was one of those? None other than Bob Mueller. 


SH
sharkbokCaptain23,209 posts
28 Mar 2019, 14:37
#75
28 Mar 2019, 14:37#75

Clevermike,

Your post is too long to respond too in detail, without taking ages. 

However, the bottom line was you accused people who are not Christians as supporters of the Taliban. It was a Beeno like approach of we are the good guys, and everyone else is the bad guys. Like a nursery school child at bible studies.

Re: Communism- the goals are left wing, however, in practice is it centralisation and having a king/emporer. 

If you read George Or wells book animal farm, you can learn more https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_Farm

Communism starts with great ideals, but as time passes the leading party gets small and smaller until only one person remains- and becomes an emporer. In practice it is right wing, as it is like having an Egyptian emporer.  Democracy is about splitting up power, so in practise, it is more left wing. (even though monopolistic capitalist practises are not). 

You also seem to reject democracy. If you reject democracy, socialism, and communist, what is left other than anarchy? 


DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
28 Mar 2019, 14:38
#76
28 Mar 2019, 14:38#76

"If Beeno will unequivocally state he does not agree with it, I will accept that. 


Draad, you are Beeno's Serville Gimp. He can speak for himself."
He did speak for himself, you just didn't listen and you are confusing 2 separate issues.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
28 Mar 2019, 15:48
#77
28 Mar 2019, 15:48#77

SB

Again a total misread what I said ad a construction that never happened.  When Lenin took over in 1917 the first thing he did was to crush all opposition - no democracy but wholesale murder.   In the years 1917 to 1952 there was a state sponsored situation responsible for 52 million deaths,

Basically socialism is always dictatorial in nature - wherever it took control in the world.   They rarely allow free elections and if they do they use the media and lies to manipulate outcomes.   Stalin made the classical comment - "Elections are extremely important - what is much more important is who counts the votes".   So your story about development of socialism into dictatorships is really funny,   There is no  historic basis for that at all.  

I am not really a religious fanatic - I avoid going to church and rarely goes.   So why should I attack non-Christians as belonging to the Taliban.   That is ridiculous - I merely pointed out that attacks against religion should not be based  on attacking not only one religion - such attacks  should include all religions.     

I have no real problem with democracy as a concept but do believe that there should be limitations in place that could mean that people who can vote should at least know what they are voting for,   An education level requirement or something like that may help.   There are evil  political scoundrels who are both leftists and rightists.

The only problem is that there is no real identifications as to who are leftists and who are rightists - it depend entirely on media whims  and is the most abused  description in the last century.    If it suits them  politicians become leftists  idols or rightist devils.  Do you really believe the BS the media comes up with?  I don't.     .  .  

SH
sharkbokCaptain23,209 posts
28 Mar 2019, 16:24
#78
28 Mar 2019, 16:24#78
clevermike

Hall Of Fame

35184 posts

Mar 28, 2019, 09:43

The problem of religion has been debated on this site endlessly.   On the one side, there are those supporting Christianity - on the second side there are those supporting the Islamic faith.   

"The anti-religion members criticize Christianity - but never Islamism".  


I don't recall anyone every supporting Islam- certainly not terrorist acts. People showed some compassion with what happened in Christchurch. (e.g. not all Muslim's are evil). 

I have said repeadedly that Muslim is the worst religion in the world - at least in the 21st century. They have a higher ratio of fanatics and a higher ratio of people that are sympathetic to terrorism. 

I prefer to see the West as modern and logical viewpoint rather than the Christian side of the war. However, I do feel that the West should allow them to do their own thing in the Middle East and not take sides in their wars(against each other).



MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
28 Mar 2019, 16:42
#79
28 Mar 2019, 16:42#79
Why should Beeno have to say that he doesn't support the CC gunman. What evidence do you have to suspect that he might? When has Beeno ever advocated killing innocent people. You should really apologize.......this is way off base.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
28 Mar 2019, 16:42
#80
28 Mar 2019, 16:42#80
Why should Beeno have to say that he doesn't support the CC gunman. What evidence do you have to suspect that he might? When has Beeno ever advocated killing innocent people. You should really apologize.......this is way off base.
↓ LOAD MORE (page 3 of 4)

More from Mikes Gripes