So erm.....

"So no thanks for educating you? For giving you the numbers which none of the press have bothered to extract?  Well you are now educated, and you surely weren’t. You thought your European government medicine was doing the business."

Strawman much?

"And US medicine did it with one hand tied behind it’s back. Getting a new treatment approved here is very difficult because of the Left controlled courts and medical regulators. Still smarts prevail."

Its that damn pesky meddling do nothing radical left again! Evidence?

"Now more education. These system rankers have an agenda.....they want the US to convert to national health. So cost and supposed accessibility are negative marks. But it’s theoretical accessibility.....people who are officially insured/ not insured."

Of course just like you say proponents of global warming have an agenda you say the same about anyone who presents evidence that socialized health care can out preform private health care. You wouldn't have an agenda now yourself would you? Call it agenda if you want, but if the evidence shows that's a better system that what you currently have that's what the evidence shows. 

"But no sick person is turned away from any hospital.....an illegal immigrant in the US will get faster access to an MRI than the best insured person in most of Europe."

They are not turned away, they just get hit with a crushing mountain of debt afterwards, or you have cases like where a women in the US got her leg stuck between a train and a platform and even though she was in pain and bleeding heavily she was begging passers by not to call an ambulance because she couldn't afford it.

As for your claim on MRI scans, again any evidence to back that up?. I can see that America does indeed do very well on number of MRI machines, though according to data from OECD that doesn't indicate a higher usage, with Austria, Germany and France conducting a similar number of MRI scans per capita. Then there is the cost with an average cost of an MRI scan in the US costing about $1,100 dollars, compared to $280 in France and $180 in Spain.

Of course this is an example of you cheery picking. Parts of the US health system are indeed quite good, but when the system in its entirety is looked at its performance is below average compared to other first world nations.

"Who pays? Americans pay....you know, the selfish one percent. I have given over $40000 each year for the last 30, to local hospitals. All of that money goes to hospital care for people who can’t pay.

It’s not perfect, but it works and it’s the most sophisticated health care available anywhere."

I'm not saying European health systems are perfect either. but on comparison they are outperforming the US. It may be the most sophisticated health care system in the world but as I already said, that doesn't mean its the best.

Just one example from the cutting edge:

The US$14-million scanner is one of a handful around the world that are pushing MRI to new limits of magnetic strength. Today, hospitals routinely use machines with field strengths of 1.5?T or 3?T. But ultra-high-field scanners are on the rise. There are already dozens of 7-T machines in research labs around the world, and last year, the first 7-T model was cleared for clinical use in both the United States and Europe. At the extreme end are three scanners designed for humans that reach beyond 10?T. In addition to the University of Minnesota’s machine, researchers are readying two 11.7-T devices for their first tests on people: a gargantuan one for whole-body scanning at the NeuroSpin Centre at CEA Saclay outside Paris, and a smaller one for head scans at the US National Institutes of Health (NIH) in Bethesda, Maryland. Germany, China and South Korea are considering building 14-T human scanners.

So this I believe is your point:

 The U.S. has 40.4 MRI machines per million people, which is substantially more than most comparably wealthy countries except for Japan (55.2). The comparable country average is 22.3 MRI machines per million people. However, it should be noted that more MRI machines are not always associated with higher usage. For example, per OECD data, Austria, Germany and France all conduct similar numbers of MRI exams per capita when compared to the United States, despite having fewer machines.

.......

Which of course is my point, given the lower utilization per machine you are far more likely to get immediate potentially life saving time on a US MRI....thanks.

@ Plum

This is false logic against a backdrop of too few tests or manpower to process tests being available.

There may have been shortages with too few tests or manpower but there would be still no reason not to max out your testing capacity at the time. The more you test, the more positives you get, the more positives you get the more you can isolate the infected,  the more infected that are isolated the less the virus will spread, decreasing future demand. But I'm not saying test everyone randomly if you have limited capacity, you can target specific high risk/or high probability sections of the public for the virus, this is what European countries did as well as the US but Europe was simply doing more of for the first few months. One of the criticism of America's initially testing policy was that it was actually too narrow in the field of who could be tested and that was something controlled at the Federal level.

Whatever the reason was for the shortages, it wasn't something the Trump administration appeared to be reacting too or putting much emphasis on fixing. The main emphasis from the Trump administration was bigging up the travel ban and having a pop at China and the WHO.

"This then allows you to further focus your testing in order to limit the spread. Using up vital tests to randomly screen a tiny fraction of the population is statistically unlikely to give you much bang for your buck, if anything."

The testing wasn't done at random, either in Europe or the US.

As for the professor you quoted I'm sure he's right.

@ Mozart

I wasn't disputing that American has cutting edge medical technology. It doesn't refute my point that sophistication does not necessarily mean the best.

"Which of course is my point, given the lower utilization per machine you are far more likely to get immediate potentially life saving time on a US MRI....thanks."

Maybe it does maybe it doesn't. But can you stop cherry picking only the good parts of the US health care system and compare the whole thing to other first world health care systems and then come back to me.

Well I rest my case....the US healthcare has outperformed Europe in treating Covid.....hard numbers. Little wonder that when the world’s famous people get really ill, they come to the US in disproportionate numbers. 

What I underatand from this is that the USA was less affected early on and, like everybody else, had a shortage of tests available. 

What I also see, is a complete lack of objective reasoning when it comes to asking questions of those making decisions for states and cities. 

All good and well wanting to blame Trump but it all falls down when you completely ignore that deM mayors and governors allowed protests, sent infected people into areas where those vulnerable to the virus were and took part in disinformation campaigns that damaged and undermined the US's response to the virus.

Try this...

See if you can list some ways in which deM leaders caused or worsened the Covid situation.

"What I also see, is a complete lack of objective reasoning when it comes to asking questions of those making decisions for states and cities. 

All good and well wanting to blame Trump but it all falls down when you completely ignore that deM mayors and governors allowed protests, sent infected people into areas where those vulnerable to the virus were and took part in disinformation campaigns that damaged and undermined the US's response to the virus."

I'm sure Trump isn't to blame for everything. He was right on the travel restrictions to China and the botched testing at the start of the pandemic was the CDC's fault not his. And I'm sure Democratic mayors and governors can take some of the blame.  But Trump has got a huge amount wrong with his handling of the pandemic.

As for the protests, personal I think they should not have gone ahead during pandemic. It likely contributed to the spread of the virus. But regarding these protests, are they registered protests or where the mostly organized spontaneously without approval?. What choices did the mayors have. If they went in heavy handed to disperse the protests that could of ended up making a volatile situation in American even worse.

I'm aware that Democratic mayors released Covid patients into care homes and many attributed that decision to large number of deaths of the elderly. However as Cuomo pointed out he was actually following federal guidelines when he did so in an effort to prevent hospitals from being overwhelmed and at the time the move was welcomed by some hospitals and care homes, some care homes said they would of taken Covid patients in even if they where not asked too do so. It can also be pointed out, some care homes in different states in the US that didn't take in Covid patients where also badly hit. Its something that happened all across Europe as well, care homes where extremely badly hit and that wasn't caused by sending Covid patients to care homes, it was caused by infected care workers. Yes it was the wrong decision to make and it did cost many lives but if those where the federal guidelines what where the alternatives to prevent hospitals from being overwhelmed?

As for disinformation, you will always have political games where one side blames the other. I''m not condoning lies, smears or disinformation coming from the political left. But as far as I can see the overwhelming amount of disinformation is coming from the right wing.

"...coming from the political left."

What does that mean to you? And what do you mean if you label me as right-wing?

...and that means what? Socialism vs Capitalism,  progressive vs conservative? 

Read the Economist, it provides some good material on Covid....not the politically tainted garbage the media tends to put out there.  Here is a good quote from their examination of the Swedish approach:

Sweden is a high-trust society, where people follow the rules. And yet its approach is based on the idea that, as covid-19 is here for a long time, asking too much of people will lower compliance and thus spread the disease. Low-trust societies may need a different balance between coercion and self-policing but they, too, need sustainable rules.

And what of masks? Sweden’s fans seize on mask-free crowds in Stockholm as proof of its liberty. But that is not the basis for its policy. Government experts argue that the evidence that masks help is weak, and that their other measures work fine. In this, Sweden is out of step with other countries. If the disease charges back there, that is likely to change. After all, its policy is based on evidence and pragmatism, not blind principle. ?

.....

Good points....do what really helps .....don’t force people into mindless restrictions. 

"As for disinformation, you will always have political games where one side blames the other. I''m not condoning lies, smears or disinformation coming from the political left. But as far as I can see the overwhelming amount of disinformation is coming from the right wing."

Let's dissect Star's reasoning...

Drumming up completely fake charges and impeaching a president on said false charges, hearsay and misinformation, during a pandemic, is less harmful and undermines a nationa's confidence in their leader less than what exactly?

Allowing, supporting AND funding mass protest action during a pandemic undermines a pandemic response less than...?

Attempting to remove a president, by inaccurate and misleading use of the 25th amendment, while there is a pandemic on the loose is worse than what exactly that the right has done?

In reality, I just picked three, off the top of my head, but the list is much longer. 

We haven't event touched in on the falsification of evidence by Hillary's pals in the FBI yet...

Jump in at any point with your counter argument as to which side's lies, deceit and corruption have done more damage to that country.

Truth is, a person that cares about democracy would be frightened and disgusted by what has transpired.

Any rational person should clearly be able to see exactly how dangerous all of this is. Remember, next time, the person or party that is demonized might be yours, and the motive may be more sinister...Not that it isn't already extremely nefarious this time around.

"Drumming up completely fake charges and impeaching a president on said false charges, hearsay and misinformation, during a pandemic, is less harmful and undermines a nationa's confidence in their leader less than what exactly?"

That's your opinion that the chargers where false. To impeach a President the senate has to vote by a two third's majority to impeach the President. As the the Republicans have the majority in the senate they where never likely to vote for impeachment. I recall hearing Republican senators state before the impeachment hearings began that they would not vote to impeach Trump regardless of the evidence presented.

"Allowing, supporting AND funding mass protest action during a pandemic undermines a pandemic response less than...?"

When you say allow, can you clarify. I'm not familiar with laws in the US regarding protests. Do protests have to have approval to do so and if so who approve it. In the case of the BLM protests are they approved protests or where the organized spontaneously or a mix? Perhaps your not referring to allowing the protests to go ahead but the fact that after they where started they where not dispersed by the police. I could see a scenario where if the police did try to disperse the protests they would only end up inflaming the situation and resulting in more protests. Also corralling protests might also led to a higher infection rate at the protests.

As for supporting the protests, I see some Democrats have come out in support of the protests and have also been critical of Trump holding large rally's. So yes you are free to criticize democrats on those ground. Those protests have no doubt contributed to the spread of Covid 19 and the democrats have encourage this and are guilty of hypocrisy.

As for funding, can you provide evidence of this?

"Attempting to remove a president, by inaccurate and misleading use of the 25th amendment, while there is a pandemic on the loose is worse than what exactly that the right has done?"

This is simply not true. They are not attempting to remove the President, this is legislation that is unlikely to pass and even if it did will not be place before the election.

https://www.politifact.com/article/2020/oct/09/house-democrats-new-bill-25th-amendment-explained/

"In reality, I just picked three, off the top of my head, but the list is much longer. 

We haven't event touched in on the falsification of evidence by Hillary's pals in the FBI yet..."

Trump and republicans have been in power for almost 4 years now, if Hilary is so corrupt why isn't she in jail yet or even been charged with anything?. Please don't say its because of the deep state, that's just replacing one unproven conspiracy theory with another.

"Jump in at any point with your counter argument as to which side's lies, deceit and corruption have done more damage to that country."

By far Trump. On the pandemic.

He's consistently downplayed the pandemic, from saying its not that bad, it will go away on its own, their will be a vaccine soon, its under control etc etc. He's not lead by example with his great reluctance to wear face masks. He's actually politicized wearing facing masks by mocking those who wear them. He's contradicted the scientific and medical advisors, confusing the messaging going out to the public and eroding public trust in the medical advise and guidelines. No doubt this has encourage millions of American's to go about their lives as normal without taking the necessary precautions, believing the risk is low, or its a very minor disease or its a conspiracy and doesn't exist at all. He's con sistently placed the economy above peoples lives, pressuring states to re-open and reduce restrictions before the virus was under control. He seemed to have very little interest in ramping up testing at the start of the pandemic and was criticized by states for not helping them enough. Hell he would make generic non specific criticisms of certain usually democratic states handling of the pandemic and when the governors of those states asked the white house "okay what where we suppose to do, what did we do wrong?",  the white house/Trump never responded. He's unfairly attacked the WHO and withdrew America's funding of it (watch the video I embedded above) actually hindering the fight against the pandemic not only in the US but across the world. He's also consistently damaged America's reputation across the world with embarrassing comments along the lines "we only have so many cases, because we test so much" and " are our scientists looking into injecting bleach as a potential Covid treatment?". It was also America under his administration that diverted a shipment of face masks bound for Germany to the US, aka modern day piracy.  He's hosted numerous indoor events with large crowds with very few people wearing masks and almost no social distancing, some of these event have been confirmed as super spreaders of the virus. Once he contracted the virus, he got in a sealed car with several secret service agents, putting them at great risk and setting yet another awful example. Covid 19 has claimed over 200,000 lives in the US during the Trump Presidency, the highest death tole in any country and is in the top 10 worst performing countries in deaths per head of population and may rise higher in the coming weeks and months. Its true that regardless of who was in charge many lives would of been lost anyway even with the best of intentions and the best of responses. But a huge number of lives have no doubt been unnecessarily lost because of the Trump administrations stupidity and incompetence.

"Truth is, a person that cares about democracy would be frightened and disgusted by what has transpired.

* Impeachment - nothing came of it because, if you watched the hearings, you will recall that not a shred of credible evidence surfaced. 

* Hillary and the FBI - You're aware one of the FBI lawyers pleaded guilty to falsifying documents? He didn't plead guilty to negligence. IE It was intentional. If that was the worst of it then he'd never have pleaded guilty. Baseless conspiracy?

On that note, and sinice you brought up conspiracies...what are your thoughts on how that incident came about? What motive would an FBI lawyer have to falsify documents that allow for investigation into a political campaign? Either, he was a loose cannon that for some reason sought to go on a solo crusade against Trump or...the only other option is CONSPIRACY. 

* Trump downplaying the pandemic. Every time the CDC update their number the kill rate comes down. And You can bet that it'll come down further. Every time they update their figures, Trump's initial advise becomes more apt. IE this virus is not that bad. It's marginally worse than the flu and crashing economies are unwarranted.

* Withdrawing WHO funding. Are you of the opinion that a body that exists primarily for this type of situation can get their figures so desperately wrong, so many times, while covering for China, and then expect to continue to get funding? Exactly how much have their blunders cost people? Hard for you to really say, considering you live in the first world. Where I live, millions of people went hungry and are still suffering the economic consequences. 

* Testing DOES mean you find more cases. Of course, the left attempted to spin this as though Trump meant testing creates cases. The bleach thing - really? Hardly deserves a response tbh. Suffice it to say it's disappointing that you'd so freely use what is obviously a disingenuous line of reasoning.

Nothing much to say about the rioters and the demS support of them? While business have to remain shut? You'll note that both the right to earn a living and the right to protest are protected by the US constitution. Only one of those rights were supported by the demS. Strange that, isn't it?

https://thefederalist.com/2020/08/31/meet-the-rioting-criminals-kamala-harris-helped-bail-out-of-jail/

Star

This from the link above...these were the people that your preferred future vice president of the USA helped to get out on bail...

Among those bailed out by the Minnesota Freedom Fund (MFF) is a suspect who shot at police, a woman accused of killing a friend, and a twice convicted sex offender, according to court records reviewed by the FOX 9 Investigators.

According to attempted murder charges, Jaleel Stallings shot at members of a SWAT Team during the riots in May. Police recovered a modified pistol that looks like an AK-47. MFF paid $75,000 in cash to get Stallings out of jail.

Darnika Floyd is charged with second degree murder, for stabbing a friend to death. MFF paid $100,000 cash for her release.

Christopher Boswell, a twice convicted rapist, is currently charged with kidnapping, assault, and sexual assault in two separate cases. MFF paid $350,00 [sic] in cash for his release.

You'll note that Harris was ever so eager to have people locked up for possession of marijuana when she was a prosecutor.

Now that she is a deM politician...she's happy to have rapists and murders back on the streets.

It's disgraceful...but no matter, anything to help people see the evils of Trump's America. Right?

More support and fundraising for the rioters by the left...

https://thepostmillennial.com/who-funded-the-american-race-riots-democrats-and-celebrities

NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!

Big long post I spent ages typing, lost to this stupid god damn forum system.

Sorry Plum I don't have the energy to type it up again today.

If it's any consolation Stav, DumbPlum wouldn' t have understood it anyway.

The Coward sneaks onto the string.....farts....and then rushes to the sidelines.

‘That's your opinion that the chargers where (sic)  false‘ ....spoken like a true Leftie. Do you really believe if the charges had any real merit Republican senators like Romney, Burr, Collins, Alexander, Gardner, Rubio and Murkowski.....all of whom have opposed Trump.....would not have acted.

I keep telling you, it’s a free country, senators have great independence. Nobody broke ranks because both impeachment attempts were fatally flawed.

* Impeachment - nothing came of it because, if you watched the hearings, you will recall that not a shred of credible evidence surfaced.

Again this is your opinion. We can back and forth on this all day but I don't think we will get anywhere. You no doubt believe I'm either allowing my biases to cloud my judgement or that I've allowed myself to be misled by the left wing. I could apply the same back to you, but that's simply politics for you.

"Hillary and the FBI - You're aware one of the FBI lawyers pleaded guilty to falsifying documents? He didn't plead guilty to negligence. IE It was intentional. If that was the worst of it then he'd never have pleaded guilty. Baseless conspiracy?

On that note, and sinice you brought up conspiracies...what are your thoughts on how that incident came about? What motive would an FBI lawyer have to falsify documents that allow for investigation into a political campaign? Either, he was a loose cannon that for some reason sought to go on a solo crusade against Trump or...the only other option is CONSPIRACY. "

I looked this up and it does appear to be true that an FBI lawyer has pleaded guilty to falsifying documents. However I fail to see how this links back to Hilary, none of the articles online I've seen even mention her name. He likely plead guilty to cop a reduced sentence, a guilty plea does not automatically mean you're guilty of a worse crime. As for motive its unlikely he did so on his own accord, but was likely directed or pressured to do so, possibly from Trump's political opponents on the left. This should be investigated and if evidence is found those involved should be prosecuted. Finally the fact this lawyer has plead guilty to falsifying documents does not necessarily render the rest of the Russian investigation invalid.

"Trump downplaying the pandemic. Every time the CDC update their number the kill rate comes down. And You can bet that it'll come down further. Every time they update their figures, Trump's initial advise becomes more apt. IE this virus is not that bad. It's marginally worse than the flu and crashing economies are unwarranted."

Let me just worldometers.info. America has 220,900 dead. Marginally worse than the flu?. The CDC estimate between 12,000 and 61,000 people die a year from the flu. Lets average that out to 36,500, So as it stands Covid 19 this year in America has killed over 6 time as many people. Note the Covid numbers are not for a full year but around 9 months and those numbers are after measures where taken to mitigate the spread of the Covid, something that does not occur for the regular flu. Also Trump supporters can't say he has saved huge number of lives by enforcing travel restrictions and then go on to claim the virus is marginally worse than the flu.

" Withdrawing WHO funding. Are you of the opinion that a body that exists primarily for this type of situation can get their figures so desperately wrong, so many times, while covering for China, and then expect to continue to get funding? Exactly how much have their blunders cost people? Hard for you to really say, considering you live in the first world. Where I live, millions of people went hungry and are still suffering the economic consequences. "

Which figures did WHO get wrong? Again I will refer you to the video I'd embedded above on many of false or misleading accusations about them. They never covered up or withheld information about China, but they did publicly praise them for transparency while privately being critical of China for their slowness in releasing information. They felt it better to praise China as they feared criticizing them would result in China not supplying them with any information. By all means you can criticize the WHO on those grounds, but you will also to criticize Trump for doing the same two days before the WHO did. They are not a perfect organization, nor do they claim to be, but there work is responsible for saving far more lives than any potential errors may have cost, the same can not be said for the Trump administration.

" Testing DOES mean you find more cases. Of course, the left attempted to spin this as though Trump meant testing creates cases. The bleach thing - really? Hardly deserves a response tbh. Suffice it to say it's disappointing that you'd so freely use what is obviously a disingenuous line of reasoning."

This is misdirection. Trump is trying to claim the reason America has so many Covid cases is that they are testing more than anyone else. The real reason they have more cases is the poor response at the start of the pandemic that allowed the virus to spread almost unchecked across the US. If other advanced countries tested now  at the same rate of testing per head of population, they may get an increased positivity rate but it will be no where near as high as positivity rate per head of population as the US because the background level of the virus in other countries is not as high.

As for the bleach thing there isn't a lot more I can say on this. I saw the whole press conference  unedited so its not a misquote. He asked whether the people looking into developing treatments for Covid 19 if they were looking into injecting bleach as a potential treatment. If you don't think this is a dumb question to ask, I don't know what to tell you, If he was the political leader of my country I'd be highly embarrassed.

"Nothing much to say about the rioters and the demS support of them? While business have to remain shut? You'll note that both the right to earn a living and the right to protest are protected by the US constitution. Only one of those rights were supported by the demS. Strange that, isn't it?

Lies Anger......his exact quote was:

“And then I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in one minute. And is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning, because you see it gets in the lungs and it does a tremendous number on the lungs, so it’d be interesting to check that, so that you’re going to have to use medical doctors with, but it sounds interesting to me. So, we’ll see, but the whole concept of the light, the way it kills it in one minute. That’s pretty powerful.”

Later, Trump clarified his comments after a reporter asked Bryan whether disinfectants could actually be injected into COVID-19 patients.

“It wouldn’t be through injections, almost a cleaning and sterilization of an area. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn’t work, but it certainly has a big effect if it’s on a stationary object.”

.............

So he explicitly said ‘it wouldn’t be through injections’....but you repeat the lie.

Trump was I’ll advised engaging in brain storming in front of a hostile and (like you) dishonest crowd. But he’s obviously speculating about the capacity to get an agent directly to the infection in the lungs.

He starts out talking about ultra violet light....but then segues into the notion of attacking covid in situ. Now I heard just a few weeks back about an experimental nasal spray that has shown good results reducing the viral load. So there you have it an agent that attacks the virus directly in the body,

Aren’t you just a little ashamed reproducing this lie?

Star, 

I looked this up and it does appear to be true that an FBI lawyer has pleaded guilty to falsifying documents. However I fail to see how this links back to Hilary, none of the articles online I've seen even mention her name. He likely plead guilty to cop a reduced sentence, a guilty plea does not automatically mean you're guilty of a worse crime. As for motive its unlikely he did so on his own accord, but was likely directed or pressured to do so, possibly from Trump's political opponents on the left. This should be investigated and if evidence is found those involved should be prosecuted. Finally the fact this lawyer has plead guilty to falsifying documents does not necessarily render the rest of the Russian investigation invalid.

source

"Handwritten notes by then-CIA Director John Brennan, who now is a fiery anti-Trump commentator, say that Brennan briefed Obama on “alleged approval by Hillary Clinton on July 26, 2016 of a proposal from one of her foreign policy advisors to vilify Donald Trump by stirring up a scandal claiming interference by Russian security services.”

Let me just worldometers.info. America has 220,900 dead. Marginally worse than the flu?. The CDC estimate between 12,000 and 61,000 people die a year from the flu. Lets average that out to 36,500, So as it stands Covid 19 this year in America has killed over 6 time as many people. 

As you consider the difference of about 180k deaths to be very relevant, I have to ask - Do you remember what the predictions were? Initially were ware talking millions upon millions of deaths in every country. Then we destroyed livelihoods based on those predictions. 

Worse, we proved that media and politics can very easily be used to cause us to give up our freedom. To literally accept being locked in your house and not be allowed to work.

Regardless, only 6% of the 220k died solely from Covid, as per the CDC's own data. IE 13.2k people. A large portion of that 220K is just people that died while having Covid. 

When someone dies from a car crash while having the flu, we don't count that as a flu death. Unlike what is being done with Covid in some countries....like the US.

You find that the Covid fatality rate is closer to the 6% of 220k than it is to the bloated 220K.

As for the bleach thing there isn't a lot more I can say on this. I saw the whole press conference  unedited so its not a misquote. He asked whether the people looking into developing treatments for Covid 19 if they were looking into injecting bleach as a potential treatment.

So did I. And when I read the spin about the bleach afterwards, I knew exactly what it was. A nonsense way to disingenuously twist off-the-cuff conceptual language into something it wasn't. 

As for the linked article. Its something of a hatchet job that originated from that bastion of fairness and balance Fox News.

It's quite clear that left's media and politicians have been batting for Antifa/BLM. Kamala's support for getting criminals bail money is only one in a long line of ways the left propped up violent thugs. Chaz/Chop was after all...a summer festival of love. Though you would get your shit kicked in if you took a stroll through there wearing a Maga hat. Can you feel the love, the tolerance? 

Supporting the "peaceful" protestors was a cover for giving kids the right to intimidate people with different opinions.  America saw this, eventually.

Trump = Condemns the rioting, looting and lawlessness from day one.

Biden = Antifa is an idea.

Only once the polls showed America disapproving of the violence did the demS backtrack.. a bit. 

"Handwritten notes by then-CIA Director John Brennan, who now is a fiery anti-Trump commentator, say that Brennan briefed Obama on “alleged approval by Hillary Clinton on July 26, 2016 of a proposal from one of her foreign policy advisors to vilify Donald Trump by stirring up a scandal claiming interference by Russian security services.”

Once again that's not proof. That's more tabloid sensationalism with key points left out.

The briefing he gave Obama was American insight into Russian analysis alleging that Clinton was intended to start a scandal against Trump. The letter also noted the US intelligence community "does not know the accuracy of this allegation or the extent to which the Russian intelligence analysis may reflect exaggeration or fabrication."

https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-afs:Content:9458967050

"As you consider the difference of about 180k deaths to be very relevant, I have to ask - Do you remember what the predictions were? Initially were ware talking millions upon millions of deaths in every country. Then we destroyed livelihoods based on those predictions. 

Worse, we proved that media and politics can very easily be used to cause us to give up our freedom. To literally accept being locked in your house and not be allowed to work.."

The CDC modeled 4 scenarios, that estimated between 200,000 and 1.7 million dead. Some of the modeling scenarios where worst case scenario's, that assumed no mitigation measures where implemented. We will never know how accurate they where because a scenario of no mitigation did not come to pass, but at the same time you can't say the predictions where wrong.

For the love of monkeys, what is it with Americans and people on right that keep wanging on about freedom like they are the only people who have experience of it. The overwhelming majority of planet eath population are willing to accept a temporary reduction in basic freedoms if its the greater good of society as a whole, that does not mean they want freedoms curtailed any longer than is absolutely necessary And they accuse the left of being snow flakes. Imagine during the Blitz when Londoners where asked to turn off their lights at night to not aid enemy bombers and they refused on the grounds of personal freedom. Tell me if I wanted to go out and get pissed drunk should I be free to drive a car afterwards, if not can I complain about my freedom being restricted?

"Regardless, only 6% of the 220k died solely from Covid, as per the CDC's own data. IE 13.2k people. A large portion of that 220K is just people that died while having Covid. "

If your saying its just people with underlying health conditions that get killed people in conjunction with Covid 19, I've bad new for you, about 60% of Americans are risk then.

It is possible that a significant number died naturally while having Covid, the number here in Ireland is believed to about a third here. I can't see why that number would be different in the US but we are not really going know for some time.

"When someone dies from a car crash while having the flu, we don't count that as a flu death. Unlike what is being done with Covid in some countries....like the US.

You find that the Covid fatality rate is closer to the 6% of 220k than it is to the bloated 220K."

While there has been examples of cases of people dying listed as Covid from other cases, the scale of these occurrences is no doubt being massively exaggerated by those wishing to down play the seriousness of the pandemic.

As for the deaths in the US from Covid being just over 12,000 you know that's simply not true.

"So did I. And when I read the spin about the bleach afterwards, I knew exactly what it was. A nonsense way to disingenuously twist off-the-cuff conceptual language into something it wasn't. "

Can you honestly tell me that if Biden has said the exact same thing you wouldn't be mocking him for it.

No amount of spin can cover for Trump in this case, no matter how indignant his supporters sound.

"It's quite clear that left's media and politicians have been batting for Antifa/BLM. Kamala's support for getting criminals bail money is only one in a long line of ways the left propped up violent thugs. Chaz/Chop was after all...a summer festival of love. Though you would get your shit kicked in if you took a stroll through there wearing a Maga hat. Can you feel the love, the tolerance? 

Supporting the "peaceful" protestors was a cover for giving kids the right to intimidate people with different opinions.  America saw this, eventually.

Trump = Condemns the rioting, looting and lawlessness from day one.

Biden = Antifa is an idea.

Only once the polls showed America disapproving of the violence did the demS backtrack.. a bit. "

To me that's just right wing misinformation and conspiracy's trying to discredit and smear the BLM movement and democrats by conflating them with the rioters and non organized groups like antifa. Most of the claims coming out from the right are simply not true, have no evidence to support them and are easily debunked with just a few minutes research.

"Biden = Antifa is an idea."

Even Rooi repeated the mantra...they all read the same script...and they call us "Trumpanzees" and brainwashed...you can't make up this sh!t...lie after lie for more than 5 years...and the next Trump scandal will see him in jail...again and again...time after time...5 years of anti Trump nothingburgers, but we are the fools...yeah right...wood, trees...blind.

Indeed.

No Coward, everything else wasn’t my spin....everything else was the quote and the clarification which specifically said ‘it wouldn’t be through injections’.....made during the same press conferences.

You and the painfully dishonest Anger simply put your spin on it to make it seem true, when you know it’s not. Disgusting but nothing new.

‘And is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning‘.......which is a question.....later clarified in the same session by saying ‘it wouldn’t be through injections’.

So you take a question and present it as a  statement....gutter tactics.

Exactly, conceptual off-the-cuff language which was twisted and intentionally taken literally in order to exaggerate and misrepresent the idea being put forward.

Star, what do you mean "if Biden had said something similar"?

The guy is a gaffe machine at this point.

And all that comes from it that he's clearly suffering from fading cognitive prowess. 

Wer e Biden treated the same, then we could easily deduce that he's a pedo after his weird disclosure that black kids used to run their hands up and down his legs at the swimming pool.

Star,

You seem pretty sure that the actual fatality count in the US is closer to 220K than it is to 6% of 220K.

Down the road from me is a township that I frequently drive past. It's on a main road and there are street vendors lining about 200m of the road which has numerous taxi stops too. It acts as the main service road for the community there and is always busy/crowded.

I can tell you, from personal experience, that at no stage of the lockdown did very much change on that street. There were perhaps 20% fewer people around briefly but nobody was wearing masks and the restrictions imposed on the rest of the world were all but completely missing. 

Note that most of the people there live in crowded conditions and have a culture where the personal space bubble is greatly diminished as compared to places like Europe or the USA.

TB and HIV are not as severe a problem as they were but still very prominent too - "underlying conditions".

In townships and in rural parts of the Northern and Eastern Cape, Kwazulu Natal and the Free State, the story is very much the same in terms of what I experienced in my area were restrictions weren't very strictly adhered to, if at all. We're talking tens of millions of people that mostly carried on as per normal during a dusty South African winter.

Now, how is it that only 18K people have died from Covid in SA?

The evidence, across many countries, points to the fact that the actual death count is way lower than is being cited in the USA. In light of the CDC's figure of Covid being directly responsible for only 6% of the 220K number thrown around, and with figures from other countries seemingly supporting this concession by the CDC, the burden of proof is on you.

To put it into perspective, Iran is ranked the 10th highest in terms of Covid deaths and it's suffered just under 30K deaths to date. And so you know how steeply the figures drop off from 10th place...in 15th place is Chile at 13.4K deaths.

source;

Full chart below

Now, there are two questions here...

1) Is Trump correct or incorrect when he says that more testing means more cases?

2) What of the very low deaths in other countries around the world and across the political, economic and racial spectrum, that don't feature in the top 10? 

The data points to the CDC's 6% figure being way closer to the truth. 

I'm no mathematician but I'd much rather trust the numbers than the opinions of "experts" that are all too often bought and paid for.

Again, you would need to demonstrate how the other one 170 counties manage so few deaths when it is clear that many of them never came close to matching the USA's response to Covid.

You'll note, the above is not someone else's opinion. It's simply what I see when I look at official numbers and from personal experience.

"For the love of monkeys, what is it with Americans and people on right that keep wanging on about freedom like they are the only people who have experience of it. The overwhelming majority of planet eath population are willing to accept a temporary reduction in basic freedoms if its the greater good of society as a whole, that does not mean they want freedoms curtailed any longer than is absolutely necessary And they accuse the left of being snow flakes. Imagine during the Blitz when Londoners where asked to turn off their lights at night to not aid enemy bombers and they refused on the grounds of personal freedom."

WW2 and Covid are not the same thing so it's pretty weird that you'd attempt to equate them.

Are you aware of how many people die each year? Strokes and heart disease killed 16.2m people in 2016, that we know of.

Despite covid being a new virus the total death count doesn't nearly scratch the surface of the big killers.

If you agree to be locked in for Covid then you better be very ready to give up many more of your freedoms in future. Not only that, but you better expect that dissenting voices will be silenced regardless of how qualified and experienced those voices are. We're long past screaming fire in a crowded cinema and almost at the point of burning textbooks. You may be happy with where we site on the spectrum of limitations on free speech but I am not.

Its cliche now but there is always a really good reason to give up just a little more of your liberty. Small costs that never show dividends. 

At some point, people need to stop and realise much access to their minds social media and personal technology have. And then they need to ask themselves how much of what they are doing and accepting are direct results of interactions with software and technology owned and designed by private entities that aim only to increase their bottom line.

Star, what do you mean "if Biden had said something similar"?

The guy is a gaffe machine at this point.

Not something similar, I'm talking about if he said exactly what Trump said about looking into injecting bleach as a potential treatment. Are you honestly telling me that if Biden said it you wouldn't be laughing at him or that you would defend him by saying he later clarified his comment.

Yeah Biden is certainly prone to gaffe, and he does get mocked for it. Trump is just if not more gaff prone.

Biden's seem a bit senile, Trump on the other hand have proven to be a petty vindictive narcissist and a total imbecile to boot.

Biden's not exactly a confidence inspiring candidate for President, but for many he's be far the lesser of two evils. America really does seem to be lacking decent candidates from both sides of the aisle.

"Were Biden treated the same, then we could easily deduce that he's a pedo after his weird disclosure that black kids used to run their hands up and down his legs at the swimming pool."

Those comments where not doubt a bit odd, but that's just a vulgar slur against him with no substantiating evidence to support it. Just as vulgar as the slurs against Trump when people where suggesting inappropriate things about his relationship with his daughter from photo's taken of them together when she was a child/teenager. Its fine to dislike Biden as a man or a p residental candidate, its another to stoop to such a low level of character assassination.

"You seem pretty sure that the actual fatality count in the US is closer to 220K than it is to 6% of 220K."

I can tell you, from personal experience, that at no stage of the lockdown did very much change on that street. There were perhaps 20% fewer people around briefly but nobody was wearing masks and the restrictions imposed on the rest of the world were all but completely missing. 

Note that most of the people there live in crowded conditions and have a culture where the personal space bubble is greatly diminished as compared to places like Europe or the USA.

TB and HIV are not as severe a problem as they were but still very prominent too - "underlying conditions".

In townships and in rural parts of the Northern and Eastern Cape, Kwazulu Natal and the Free State, the story is very much the same in terms of what I experienced in my area were restrictions weren't very strictly adhered to, if at all. We're talking tens of millions of people that mostly carried on as per normal during a dusty South African winter.

Now, how is it that only 18K people have died from Covid in SA?"

While I'm not doubting your personal experience, but its just that personal experience and therefore anecdotal.

Yes many predicted a dire situation for Africa but it hasn't come to pass. There is a few theory's why but I don't think anyone knows for sure yet.

2) What of the very low deaths in other countries around the world and across the political, economic and racial spectrum, that don't feature in the top 10? "

1. The question is misleading in the first place.

2. You would have to investigate each country individually to find out.

"The data points to the CDC's 6% figure being way closer to the truth. 

I'm no mathematician but I'd much rather trust the numbers than the opinions of "experts" that are all too often bought and paid for."

The 6% figure is wrong.

"Again, you would need to demonstrate how the other one 170 counties manage so few deaths when it is clear that many of them never came close to matching the USA's response to Covid."

I've no doubt some of these countries are not doing as well as they claim to be and some may overall be doing worse than America, but even if true it doesn't change the fact that America has overall handled it badly.

"While I'm not doubting your personal experience, but it's just that, personal experience, and therefore anecdotal."

It's not at all anecdotal. What i described is true in many parts of SA and as concerns tens of millions of people. I'm just telling you that I have witnessed it too.

Ask other board members that also reside in SA and they will tell you exactly the same story. Note, I have not conspired with them beforehand haha.

I've no doubt some of these countries are not doing as well as they claim to be and some may overall be doing worse than America, but even if true it doesn't change the fact that America has overall handled it badly.

Is only an opinion. I demonstrated to you what an absolute abnormality the US statistics are via official fatality figures and then presented an argument that includes  what the CDC are saying, and your response amounts to, .."America has overall handled it badly."

Again, the onus is on you prove that its closer to 220k than to 6% of 220k.

How do the figures back you up?