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FORUM / RUGBY /  The Hypocisy of the worlds Christmas...the true meaning

The Hypocisy of the worlds Christmas...the true meaning

Started by generaltit236 REPLIES2,239 VIEWS· 24 Dec 2014, 19:13
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BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
31 Dec 2014, 11:40
#81
31 Dec 2014, 11:40#81
 Hitler too was a Satanist - just googlewas hitler a Satanist and there is heaps of materialA brief extract

At first glance, the large circular room in the basement of Wewelsburg Castle appears to be harmless enough. Smooth, finely cut stones pave the floor. Glistening rock walls arch majestically towards a high vaulted ceiling.

In the centre of the room lies a sunken circular alter with polished steps leading towards a burnt and cracked stone. From here you can see thirteen lanterns flickering on the curved walls. But it’s only when you look directly upwards that the room’s significance becomes shockingly clear. At the centre of the dome lies a giant swastika.

This room was the central temple of the Satanic cult that created and directed Germany’s Nazi party. This so called Vril Society counted many of Hitler’s henchmen as members, including Himmler, Bormann, and Hess. Central to the whole cult was Hitler, who they believed to be a psychic medium in contact with powerful forces that would create an all-conquering Aryan nation. Some saw him as the Dark Messiah.

Historians have tended to downplay the occult foundations of Nazism for fear of trivialising its heinous war crimes, but a recent documentary on the Discovery Channel laid bare the untold story of the secretive religion at the heart of fascist Germany. And bizarrely, it is thought to have been based on a 19th Century science fiction novel that predicted flying saucers, an alien race at the centre of the earth, and a mysterious force known as Vril.

“Occult myths played a central role in Nazism,” says Professor Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke, head of the Centre for the Study of Esotericism at Exeter University. “When we look at these ideas today, we think of them as crazy, but they were central to the early Nazi Party and through them played a critical role in 20th century history.”

“The Vril society was dedicated to evil,” says historian Michael Fitzgerald. “Through their control of the Nazi party they committed the greatest acts of evil in the 20th Century.

“Vril occultists worked in complete secrecy doing anything that would promote Aryan power. This ranged from straightforward political assassinations, through to evoking the spirits of the dead, human sacrifice and summoning mysterious energies – or Vril - through sexual orgies.”

To understand why the Nazi party was so obsessed with the occult and Satanism, you have to travel back to Victorian times. In the late 19th Century, Germany in common with Britain, was obsessed with the occult. It was a time when no self-respecting hostess would dream of holding a dinner party without a séance to round off the evening.

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
31 Dec 2014, 11:45
#82
31 Dec 2014, 11:45#82
 All three men were in the grip of  Satan. Jesus warned Satan was like a roaring lion seeking who he may devour. People think these are mere words etc etc.Evil has a source. But so has good and the good will win. Order will be restored.
All the God haters, scofers, Satan and his demons will be gathered into one place where they can enjoy their own company and get on with it.
I would not want to be part of that company for absolutely anything. Thank you LORD for your wonderful salvation! 
DA
Devil's AdvocatePro7,008 posts
31 Dec 2014, 11:49
#83
31 Dec 2014, 11:49#83

Beeno

 

Please answer my question

 

Did our all and ever knowing God know what these three individuals would do before they were born? 

 

A simple yes or no

GE
generaltitPro3,164 posts
31 Dec 2014, 11:52
#84
31 Dec 2014, 11:52#84

Beeno...there is none so blind as those that will not see...you're flogging a dead horse.


You can lead a horse to water (but you can't make it drink).


You cannot force people to believe...they have a choice...you can tell them and pray for them but then you must leave it there...only God's Holy Spirit can convict them.


The Lord is a gentleman...He never forces us to believe...all the convincing and common sense will not open peoples hearts...only real love does.


Remember Jesus told this parable

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may ptestify unto them, lest they also come into this place of itorment. 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have qMoses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, kfather Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, rIf they hear not qMoses and the prophets, sneither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.


 
DA
Devil's AdvocatePro7,008 posts
31 Dec 2014, 12:04
#85
31 Dec 2014, 12:04#85

Ok.....Now I am blind... lol ok

 

I am merely asking questions

 

None of you know what I believe, so don't judge

 

Don't tell me that my questions portray what my beliefs are... thats rubbish

 

I am asking quations not many people think about or ask about.

 

And also don't tell me that if I believed I would not be asking these questions to begin with

 

I have an enquiring mind, hence the DA nick, thats it  

DA
Devil's AdvocatePro7,008 posts
31 Dec 2014, 12:05
#86
31 Dec 2014, 12:05#86

Well said Cloudy

 

 

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
31 Dec 2014, 12:13
#87
31 Dec 2014, 12:13#87

Beenkop what desperate position am I in?

 

DA problem is these fools have no answers to all those killings......if God is so powerful then none of those millions would have suffered......much like every child raped today or murdered seems to escape God's guiding hand.......its all a load of bullshit.

 

Justify all the cruelty in the world in the name of God and I might start taking note. The pathetic excuse that Satan is at work makes it sound more like Harry Potter by the day.

 

So given God's so called strength, he is not able to intervene when a Satan follower is killing a new born child? Where is God when this innocent child needed him most?

 

Answer that one Beenkop, without pathetic baseless quotes from the bible.....use your own words to explain and justify that child's death 

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
31 Dec 2014, 12:19
#88
31 Dec 2014, 12:19#88
 Your good works are like filty rags (The hebrew refers to menstrual rags) is the biblical verdict of mankind trying to justify themselves by good works. No one can be saved by their good works. The problem is nobody is good  - read Romans. 
If you think that you have not even began to understand the gospel. Christ came to save sinners. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. ONLY Christ can save you from the consequences of your sins. "Were my tears to ever flow and my zeal (for good works) no respite know, all for sin ould not atone. Thou must save and Thou alone". Quote from Rock of Ages a great hymn reflecting these fundamental truths of the Christian message.
Let ou DA be. The guy who spoke to me about Christ laboured for more than 8 months often into the early hours of the morning. I had every objection under the sun. 
Those who sincerely seek for truth will find it in Christ. Indeed they will find the Person Christ. Once that happens the light goes on and a new life begins.
Its fine trying to do good works etc but daft to think it can pay for your sins. We need to be remade to enter heaven this we cannot do for ourselves.
One would think by now mankind would realise we are unfit to rule ourselves.
 



BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
31 Dec 2014, 12:28
#89
31 Dec 2014, 12:28#89
 Another rant by ou snapster.
If you doubt the love of God look at the cross. 
If you think Satan doesnt exist in the face of the evidence all around you are dafter than a hatter.Wake up snaspter being a fool is not a happy state of affairs for you. Like DA yu are making a terrible erro in thinking God is a monster. 
How the hea rts of some are being revealed in this thread.
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
31 Dec 2014, 12:38
#90
31 Dec 2014, 12:38#90

So if I look at the cross, that should sort everything out should it, bwhaaahaaa.......but Beenkop, you have not answered the question and for that very reason you and your God are totally discredited.

 

Why not stand up for your God and defend him by answering my question regarding the murder of a new born child.

 

You are wrong, I don't see God as a monster, I don't see him at all for he does not exist, just like Satan does not exist........its that simple. I don't do fiction......provide me with some material evidence of your God and I will believe.

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
31 Dec 2014, 12:44
#91
31 Dec 2014, 12:44#91
 So we know the source of marxism which muredered hundreds of millions.Here is a bit more about the satanist hitler:

Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party came to power in 1933. Most occult leaders believed Hitler was The Great One."
555 is the kabalistic equivalent of an ancient Hebrew term meaning darkness. Also 555 is the numerical value of the word Necronomicon. Hitler’s Nazi party number was 555. The party began its numbering system at 500 to appear larger than it really was.

The truth is that Hitler was a Satanist. Being a politician, he worked at being diplomatic, given the power of the Christian Churchs at that time. Hitler was the long awaited leader that many German Satanic Lodges were working to bring into being. They needed a leader. Hitler, himself was a member of one of these Satanic Lodges. 
Excerpt: "I would like to pass on some of the information which, according to Otti Votavova, she received directly from Franz Bardon. According to her, Adolf Hitler was a member of a 99 Lodge. Besides this, Hitler and some of his confidants were members of the Thule Order, which was simply the external instrument of a group of powerful Tibetan black magicians which used the members of the Thule Order for their own purposes." 1

"One of the early German Workers party members was publisher Dietrich Eckart, often referred to as the spiritual founder of National Socialism. Eckart saw in Hitler the malleable leader he had been seeking and was soon introducing the new member to the right social circles in Munich and his intellectual friends in the Thule [pronounced too-lee] Society. Although Eckart's role in metaphysical practices as well as in the foundation of the Nazi party has been marginalized by most historians, it is significant that Hitler clearly understood Eckart's importance." 2

"The inner core within the Thule Group were all Satanists who practiced Black Magic" [Trevor Ravenscroft, The Spear of Destiny © 1973]

As Dietrich Eckart lay dying in 1923, he said, 'Follow Hitler! He will dance, but it is I who have called the tune. I have initiated him into the 'Secret Doctrine', opened his centers in vision and given him the means to communicate with the Powers. Do not mourn for me: I shall have influenced history more than any other German.' 3

There is also plenty of proof that Hitler and the Third Reich were working relentlessly to destroy Christianity in all of its forms. (NO SURPRISE HERE)
"I will crush Christianity under my boot like a poisonous toad." 

"A number of his closest accomplices shared Hitler's hate toward the Church and his decision to destroy it. Probably the best known among them were Bormann, Himmler, Heydrich, Rosenberg and Goebbels. Gerhard Reitlinger characterizes Himmler as follows: "Himmler's profession became destroying Jews, liberals and priests." 5

According to a note from the Holy See dated March 2, 1943: 
"At the beginning of October 1941, the number of priests from the diocese "Warthegau," who were under arrest at Dachau, amounted to several hundred; but this number swelled considerably every month as a result of a strong intensification of police measures which resulted in the arrest and deportation of further hundreds of clerics." 6

"All Catholic schools were closed." 
"An order of the Reich governor, dated August 19, 1941, said that young Germans could receive religious instructions only in the ages from 10 to 18 years old and, furthermore, only at the places of worship and one hour per week, which was to be set between 3 and 5 PM (excluding the days reserved for the exercises of the Hitler-youth). It was further ordered that the police had to be informed in advance regarding the time, the place and the instructional personnel. Several churches were removed from use as places of worship. With many others this happened later on; religious services were limited to specific hours" 7

What did Hitler have to say about "pure, original Christianity" and an "Aryan Christ?" 
"Leave the hair-splitting to others. Whether it's the Old Testament or the New, or simply the sayings of Jesus, it's all the same old Jewish swindle. It will not make us free. A German church, a German Christianity is a distortion. One is either a German or a Christian. You cannot be both."

"Hitler made it clear that he was not interested in an "Aryanized Christianity" or the "Aryan Jesus" myth promoted by Houston Stewart Chamberlain, Von Liebenfels, and certain party members. "You cannot make an Aryan out of Jesus, that's nonsense. What needs to be done you say? I will tell you: we must prevent the churches from doing anything but, what they are doing now, that is, losing ground day by day. But we can hasten matters. The parsons will be made to dig their own graves." he stated." 8


And what was the fruit oif the labours of ths particular Satanist.  very bad. Why would anybody want to spend any time with him in hell? Why would you want to serve him here on earth? 

Note how marx railed against his maker. Youw ill find most atheiests do likewise. Dreaming up every imaginable charge against God. The Lord has them in dersion Psalm 1 tells thEm. Sit thou at my right hand he tells the Son until i have made your enemises your FOOTSTOOL. WHY BE PART OF THIS EVIL LOSER GROUP! 



SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
31 Dec 2014, 12:55
#92
31 Dec 2014, 12:55#92
Pathetic Beenkop......just as I thought, you have no answer. So much for standing up for your God........only fools believe in fiction, it takes a wise man to question. You are a sheep  
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
31 Dec 2014, 13:00
#93
31 Dec 2014, 13:00#93
So you truly think God murders children like those aborntionists etc. Believe me all murderers will be judged for their deeds. Nobody will escape the judgment. Either you pay for your own sins or you accept the consequences of your sin.
The cross shows clearly that God would show mercy to sinners. The cross was a terrible price to pay.
All you are seeing is the evil in a world in Satans grip. There will be peace on earth when Christ returns. satnas wages are very hard. 
snapster you are sounding more shrill by the moment. You are lost in a profound darkness where black becomes white and white back. 
Unfortunately there is worse to come. There is coming a period of 7 years knwo as the great tribulation when Satan really brings it on. If those days were not shortened all would perish. At the end Christ returns and Satan is dealt with and peace comes.
I think we are entering the period referred to as the great rebellion. A time when many will not tolerate sound doctrine. Amongst the ungodly the anti God vibe is reaching new hysterical hights via guys like Richard Dawkins. We see echoes of his profanities here on this board. Shocking really. 


BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
31 Dec 2014, 13:06
#94
31 Dec 2014, 13:06#94
 DA wise up please. If God was going to stop all who sinned from being born he would have needed to obliterate the human race not just those three Satanist!You are garrisoning your mind and hardening your heart against God. Looking for any reason to make out that your maker is a monster. Really very silly stuff.

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
31 Dec 2014, 13:12
#95
31 Dec 2014, 13:12#95

No dumb Beenkop......I did not say God was murdering those children, I am asking why your God given his supposed unlimited powers and strength did not save those children?

 

A simple explanation will do without you going off on a pathetic irrelevant tangent.......just answer the question.....I know you are thick, but I have repeated the request a number of times now.

 

You seem to think all your tangents carry weight.......it just evidences your lack of an answer  

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
31 Dec 2014, 13:15
#96
31 Dec 2014, 13:15#96
Becs I cant save poor snapster, I can only point the way out to him and some other oaks here who are lost. Speak the truth to them and sow the good seed.
There is NO other Name given under heaven and earth whereby men can be saved.
Only ONE way. If you want to argue with the Lord Jesus about this feel free. 
God th e Son is the highest point of revelation. Nobody even comes vaguely close. 
GE
generaltitPro3,164 posts
31 Dec 2014, 13:29
#97
31 Dec 2014, 13:29#97
Cloudy, my dear...your are wrong...there is forgiveness for every single one but repentance must be genuine...it must be real, truthful and honest. The bible tells that Christ died for all.

Merely artificial lip service can foil other people, ie merely saying I'm sorry but no true repentance or change of heart is empty...only God knows the heart...there is no way anybody can fool him.

We all do things wrong at times and the human heart is a deceiving and wicked thing...but a true repentant person changes heart. The thief on the cross at Calvary got there in the nick of time...Jesus read his heart...he was honest and admitted his sins...the other thief did not and died with curses and resentment in his heart.

When people do really evil things and continue to do them in defiance and rebellion and harm people in a very terrible way...there comes a time when the inner person gets hard and immune to sin, it becomes more difficult...I think of people like Hitler, Goebbels,Lenin, Stalin Idi Amin, Robert Mugabe, Fidel Castro etc...their inner self eventually so blind, evil, and sold out to evil that they believe that they themselves are type evil gods and are so self-centred they cannot see goodness but I do believe there were many times in their lives they were confronted to receive or reject the truth.

With the slave trader...he recognised his evil, saw the evil for what it was and was convicted. He truly repented and changed. He became another person...the "old man" died and he was regenerated...there's enough at the cross for every single one...he have choices...God's greatest gift to us is His Son paying the price for us but like all gifts it only becomes ours when we accept and receive it and we can only do that if we are honest and truthful and recognise our sin.

Yes we cannot judge a persons heart but if a man says he believes and lives still in an evil way...not minor weakness which he struggles with but with a deliberate insensitive way that clearly shows no remorse at all by his actions , disposition and attitude then it is not true.

It's impossible for a regenerated heart to love sin...when a saved person sin's he knows that because the Holy Spirit convicts him/her immediately and he cannot be happy and free until he/she deals with it...it will never go away...it will bring no inner peace in his heart.

You become a new person in Christ...I used to hate God at one time in my life and mock...He showed mercy on me and sent hard circumstances and a person who showed kindness to me...I recognised true caring and love in this old person and she gave me a bible and for the first time I recognised that my sins had caused hurt in a loved one...I needed to change and I saw that...scales fell off my eyes and I saw Christ hanging on the cross for my sins and iniquities...it is so real...I never have any doubts of God's love...there are many things I don't understand and cannot answer but one thing I do know that this fact is real and true.




BE
becsPro4,378 posts
31 Dec 2014, 13:50
#98
31 Dec 2014, 13:50#98
 Beeno, can I ask you....do you truly believe that your Deity impregnated a Virgin and she gave birth to his child ? That an Angel told her all about this ? 

Also, Hitler actually took aspects of Religion, Occultism etc...anything he could grasp to form his way of thinking but was, in fact, more of an Atheist. He was just insane, I'm afraid. 


SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
31 Dec 2014, 14:33
#99
31 Dec 2014, 14:33#99
Beenkop, I am waiting  
GE
generaltitPro3,164 posts
31 Dec 2014, 14:37
#100
31 Dec 2014, 14:37#100
Becs, there is the miracle of creation, the Creator of the Universe is not limited to the very creation of laws He Himself created...yes God's Spirit fell upon Mary, a virgin, bethrothed to Joseph in a very beautiful and wonderful conception...not the way you put...impregnated...surely the Creator that created all things...even us the stars and planets a million light years away can create a special birth...that's really silly...the concept of time was created for earth...secs, minutes, hours, days years etc...yet with God there is no time...eternity...a concept with our limited interlect we cannot conceive...we know He created laws...such as matter cannot be created or destroyed or laws of gravity, physics, biology and chemistry. Yet surely He who created these very physical laws has control of it.

Christ was born of a Virgin...a prophecy recorded many times in the bible...hundreds of years by different prophets with no connection over vast period of time...One comes to mind...Isaiah...Behold a virgin shall conceive (how is this possible...the same question you ask) by Isaiah approx 600 years before Christ.

And yes religion can be very evil...even false christianity and preachers which is very common...they preach a false gospel...you see them on TV...prosperity gospels, word of faith etc Benny Hinns, Joyce Meyers, Joel Osteen and many others...they draw attention to themselves and not to Christ...they twist the Word to make money...they sensationise meetings and demand healings, blaspheming in the name of Christ , false teachers and prophets...sign-seekers and men-pleasers and the not the real and true Jesus and His gospel of the bible.

This has caused a lot of problems with people who are seeking the real truth.


BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
31 Dec 2014, 15:41
#101
31 Dec 2014, 15:41#101
 I cant think what ou snapster is waiting for. Perhaps you can let me know what your problem still is. 
Becs the power of the most High overshadowed Mary and she conceived. Of course I believe it. Do you really suppose the Most High who created the universe from nothing is not able to do something like this and fullfull the prophecty in Isaiah !!!! Do you honestly think there are no angels!!!
This is as daft as snapsters not thinking God could walk on water!!  Please dont allow the hatter snapster to lead you further astray. He is all at sea spiritually speaking. No clue whatsoever.

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
31 Dec 2014, 15:50
#102
31 Dec 2014, 15:50#102
 becs all atheists suffer from a form of insanity. Its against ball reason.Science today has made it even worse to be an atheist. A univers creating itslef from nothing has sunk the atheist cause totally. We all knwo that tha tcould not happen. Science has now actually PROVED the existence of God.As the creation can be greater than the Creator we can see the attributes of God in the creation.We have hence arrived as we always would at exactly the position the scriptures indicated. The heavens declare the glory of God and indicate his attributes - the scriptures say exactly this.It is in fact game set and match
Now can the one who made the mouth not speak. Well of course he can ansd he has in the bible.Poor snapster is stumbling over every trap Satan sets for him. Will he ever esacape the fowler' s snare!

GE
generaltitPro3,164 posts
31 Dec 2014, 16:14
#103
31 Dec 2014, 16:14#103
Guys, you must not think we stick up for the Gospels because we want to contend and win the argument...it's not about us at all...we know we are imperfect but He isn't and we're experienced a vital change in our lives of joy, peace, happiness and contentment and am simply sincere and don't want any point scoring here and really care for you...you're really such nice people and sometimes we irritate you because we're imperfect and in our enthusiasm want to really share this with you...we really don't intend to prove we are right but simply He is right...it's really terrible when one loves people genuinely so much and they appear so lost...remember you are saved by grace not of works...there is only One who died for you and took your burdens and strivings for self glory away. Sure there are hypocrits, deceivers and many false christians but it is not about them but about Him.

Knowing Christ doesn't become a boring and tedious task...it sets you free to be really honest and have a true Friend that laid down His life for you.

He Himself said...there is no greater love than this, if a man lays down his life for a friend.

That indeed is a great love , you cannot argue against it, you may not have been in a war battle but you have seen soldiers do it in the movie pictures, great heroics...a huge sacrifice and really a moving aspect that some men have but He did not do this because He had to and was forced to, He did this willingly, He also did not do this for one man, or a group or a nation but He bore the sins and iniquities of the entire world.


BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
31 Dec 2014, 17:03
#104
31 Dec 2014, 17:03#104
 Two great posts Seb but you should not be judging all these TV guys. Some are preaching very good stuff. My favourite is Joseph Prince. Brilliant preacher. 
Any how peace to all the oaks and its been great discussing these things although some oaks are truly struggling and making complete t---s of themselves! Never mind we all have to start somehwere!I am off to friends for New Year. 
Enjoy.
GE
generaltitPro3,164 posts
31 Dec 2014, 17:42
#105
31 Dec 2014, 17:42#105
Beeno, I shouldn't be posting it here because nobody will probably have a clue to what I'm saying but I'm not judging them as individuals but ONLY what they say...if it is not lining up with the scriptures then it's lies. Some of the things they say are not in context with the scriptures and some just plain manipulating lies and nonsense for self gain.

Anyway, I'm not going to get into contention about this but challenge preachers....they are not annointed but raise issues totally out of context...only Jesus is annointed...those claiming it it are pure manipulators...we are all the same...there are no elevated prophets today...the Word is completed and finished with John's Revelation, no additions or eliminations are trustworthy...they are just vain imaginations of spiritual pride...the cannon is closed...full stop...spectacular happenings still occur but not for public sensationalism...the Word is complete and finished...the cannon as they call it is closed...I used to listen naively and believe in some of them...the ones I mentioned but this is the work of Satan.

Jesus warned us of preachers in the end days...we are to test what they say by checking diligently their word context by studying the scriptures and seeking guidance absolutely truthfully with the Holy Spirit and this done with absolute honesty whether it hurts or contrary to group thought...we are to be alert...guys like Angus Buchan have got it wrong...in the last days,many false prophets will arise...in the very church, twisting the truth and making it tickling and favourable to mens ears...repentance and total reliance on the true Jesus as clearly written in the bible by saints inspired by God's spirit ...it's called discernment...the church today is being attacked by charlatans out to rob the vital message of repentance and salvation...the unbeliever sees this nonsense and kicks the baby out with the bathwater.
Only the Lord must have full attention and glory, not self-seeking manipulators that mix truth with error.

The old message of the scriptures is simple...Christ came to call men and women to repentance and to die to self because He did the job of paying for their sins...He paid the full price...healings and prophesies have ceased...certainly as in mass public attention seeking gatherings ...God does heal and always there will be miracles but not at our command or public sensationalism...we don't need it... to come to Christ and get saved first is the absolute...the greatest miracle is the saving a man's soul from hell...prophesies and miracles as mass attractions are not used by God today...Jesus healed in the establishment of the scriptures...these sensations raised in mass meetings today are false...the resurrected Christ's greatest gift to mankind is absolutely primary...the saving aspect...forgiveness of sins, dying to self and spending eternity with Him. Sure He meets other needs but not on demand...the primary message is saving souls in eternity...healings do occur in private...I know I was at deaths door in hospital when I was infected by necrotising faciitis...one out of 4 survive this and if they survive it normally with amputation ...I not only survived without amputation but fully recovered without any later effects...my doctors were stunned...I did not need a third party to heal me, only Him alone. Even my friend a Jewish surgeon at St Augustines was astounded and told me it was only God that could heal you. To Him alone be the glory...not any man.






sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,286 posts
31 Dec 2014, 18:18
#106
31 Dec 2014, 18:18#106
 
sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,286 posts
31 Dec 2014, 18:19
#107
31 Dec 2014, 18:19#107
 
BE
becsPro4,378 posts
31 Dec 2014, 18:19
#108
31 Dec 2014, 18:19#108
 So, how was the Creator created ? I'm an Historian so we have to start at the beginning and we have to start with a fact that can be backed up with an evidence that can be proven and shown, not just an hypothesis, Beeno. Because an hypothesis is the same whether it be pro Religion as much as it be anti.
Science has not proven there is a God, Beeno. It has proven there is something they are calling the God Particle, a basis for the creation of the Universe. It is a play on words. That appears to have escaped you ! 
As for Saffex. He is trained in the Law. He deals in Material Evidence. You need to show him something real, to give him proof. He needs to be shown his own Burning Bush or Choir of Angels sent forth from the Heavens. Give him something concrete, Beeno. You're not really doing a very good job at convincing him thus far  

As for your comments re Atheism. I have already told you to stop being so insulting.I actually know someone who suffered from Religious Mania, a lovely man, a man, prior to his illness, of great intelligence destined for a life of real worth. Instead, he was reduced to a shell. He was lucky to survive and was only saved his initial illness by the care of his Dr's and his family. He spent the rest of his life never knowing a moments peace from the constant noise inside his head. Religion broke him, the poor soul. 
GE
generaltitPro3,164 posts
31 Dec 2014, 18:37
#109
31 Dec 2014, 18:37#109
One thing is absolute... no one escapes death...it's sad that you cannot at least respect others... mockers show some respect for others least of all for themselves, aka self respect...in fact, sadly you will know this truth one day...anyway I'm not carrying on further...there's no sense to it.

Indeed enough has been said...anyway even these mockers can be prayed for and loved.
sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,286 posts
31 Dec 2014, 18:50
#110
31 Dec 2014, 18:50#110
 

Religion and Apartheid



South Africa Table of Contents

Dutch Reformed Churches


Christianity became a powerful influence in South Africa, often uniting large 

numbers of people in a common faith. In the twentieth century, however, several Christian churches actively promoted racial divisions through the political 

philosophy of apartheid. The largest of these denominations was the 

Dutch Reformed Church (Nederduitse Gereformeerde Kerk--NGK), 

which came to be known as the "official religion" of the National Party during the apartheid era. Its four main branches had more than 3 million members in 1,263 congregations in the 1990s.

The Dutch Reformed Church arrived in South Africa in the seventeenth century, 

after Calvinist reforms in Europe had entrenched the idea of predestination, 

and the Synod of Dort in the Netherlands had proclaimed this church as the "community of the elect" in 1619. The church gained recognition as the state 

religion in 1651, and the Dutch East India Company, as an extension of the state in southern Africa, established the first Dutch Reformed Church at the Cape of 

Good Hope in 1652.

Church members in South Africa generally resisted liberal trends that arose 

in Europe in the nineteenth century, but rifts occurred in the church in 1853 with the formation of the Nederduitsch Hervormde Kerk (also translated, the Dutch Reformed Church), and in 1859, with the formation of the Gereformeerde Kerk van Suid-Afrika (the Reformed Church of South Africa). The NGK is generally referred to as the Dutch Reformed Church, and these two newer churches are also referred to as Dutch Reformed churches.

All of the Dutch Reformed churches share similar Calvinist beliefs and presbyterial organization. Their doctrines assert that God is eternal, infinite, wise, and just, and the Creator of the universe. He has planned the life and the fate of each individual on earth; the "chosen" are saved, as long as they adhere to the church's teachings. 

The Bible--both the Old Testament and the New Testament--is the final authority on religious matters.

The presbyterial organization of the Dutch Reformed churches means that the functioning of each congregation is governed, in part, by that community, whereas decisions concerning policy and discipline are generally handled by regional synods. 

A general synod is responsible for the denomination as a whole. 

In South Africa, a national synod and nine regional synods oversee the operation 

of the Dutch Reformed congregations.

As black Africans and people of mixed race converted to the religion, church members debated the question of racial separation. Pressures grew for racially separate congregations, and the issue was complicated by the demands of some black church members for their own churches and congregations. In 1881 the Dutch Reformed Mission Church (Sending Kerk) established a separate coloured church. In 1910, when black South Africans made up about 10 percent of the community, the synods established the NGK in Afrika, as it became known, for black Africans. (An Indian Dutch Reformed Church was formed in 1951.)

Racial separation was only widely accepted in the church in the early 

twentieth century, as many Afrikaners came to believe that their own survival as a community was threatened, and as the belief in racial separation was gaining acceptance among white South Africans in general. 

Social and spiritual survival became intertwined in church philosophy, 

influenced in part by the early twentieth-century persecution of the Afrikaners

 by the British (see British Imperialism and the Afrikaners, ch. 1). Church leaders refused to condemn Afrikaner rebellions against the British, and their followers gained strength by attributing divine origins to their struggle for survival.

As the system of apartheid was called into question throughout the country in the 1970s and the 1980s, church leaders were, in general, more committed to apartheid than many of their followers, and the church became an impediment to political reform. A few Dutch Reformed clergy opposed apartheid. 

The best known of these, Reverend Beyers Naude, left his whites-only church in the late 1970s and joined a black parish within the Dutch Reformed church. 

The efforts of other church leaders who worked to reduce the church's racist image were often constrained by the fact that parish finances were controlled by the church's highest authorities, who supported apartheid.

Other Religious Organizations

In the 1990s, black South Africans form a majority in all large Christian churches in South Africa, except the Dutch Reformed churches, and this was true throughout the apartheid era. 

In these churches, many people became involved in efforts to reverse or to 

ameliorate the effects of apartheid policies, but with varying degrees of militancy. 

Again, there were often significant differences between church leaders and their followers concerning race and politics. For example, senior officials within the Roman Catholic Church in South Africa opposed apartheid, but a group of Catholics formed the South African Catholic Defence League to condemn the church's political involvement and, in particular, to denounce school integration.

Leaders of the Church of the Province of South Africa, the Anglican Church, spoke out in opposition to apartheid, but church members disagreed about tactics for expressing their views. Some white Anglicans vigorously opposed their church's involvement in politics, while many black Anglicans became leaders in the antiapartheid movement. The Methodist Church, which was overwhelmingly black, adopted openly antiapartheid stands on many public issues, but its leaders' activism cost it support among those who feared public scrutiny on this politically sensitive issue.

Religious alliances provided a means of coordinating church opposition to apartheid while minimizing the public exposure of church leaders and parishioners. The South African Council of Churches (SACC) was the most active antiapartheid umbrella organization. The SACC not only opposed apartheid but also offered encouragement to those who contravened race laws. Under the leadership of Anglican Archbishop Desmond Tutu in the 1980s, the SACC also attempted to withhold cooperation with the state, as much as possible, in protest against apartheid. SACC leaders were outspoken in their political views, lodging frequent complaints with government officials and organizing numerous peaceful protests.

Countering the efforts of the antiapartheid community, the Christian League of Southern Africa rallied in support of the government's apartheid policies. The Christian League consisted of members of Dutch Reformed and other churches who believed apartheid could be justified on religious grounds. The group won little popular support, however, and was criticized both for its principles and for its tactic of bringing religious and political issues together in the same debate.

BE
becsPro4,378 posts
31 Dec 2014, 18:51
#111
31 Dec 2014, 18:51#111
 Oh no, Seb, I respect EVERYONE and their right to believe what they wish and practise what they believe, providing it causes no harm to others.It is Beeno that is insulting others by calling Atheists insane and fools etc and more or less calling the rest of us goodness knows what. As I have said, no-one knows what I believe, because I have not actually told anyone. 
I spent years studying Religious History, I have a qualification in it, in fact, so I have researched many aspects of this. I find it very interesting and always actually tell people that Religion is not to blame for Wars, it it those that use the concept of it wrongly that are to blame. If it wasn't Religion, they would use something else. 
So, as I said, I respect anyone's right to believe what they choose to or not to. But I also believe it does not make someone a better person just because they choose to believe in a God. As I also said, being kind, caring, thoughtful, respectful and charitable and not causing wilful hurt to your fellow man or animals should just be a natural state of being; it has nothing to do with Religion. 
GE
generaltitPro3,164 posts
31 Dec 2014, 18:55
#112
31 Dec 2014, 18:55#112
In the film Zorba the Greek (some of you remind me of him) Anthony Quinn, Zorba and Alan Bates,Basil the learned Englishman.

Alexis Zorba: Why do the young die? Why does anybody die?

Basil: I don't know.

Alexis Zorba: What's the use of all your damn books if they can't answer that?

Basil: They tell me about the agony of men who can't answer questions like yours.

Alexis Zorba: I spit on this agony!


RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
31 Dec 2014, 19:05
#113
31 Dec 2014, 19:05#113
"With the slave trader...he recognised his evil . . .
What rubbish is this? Your god doesn't have a problem with slavery. He condones it. 
You bible-bashers are always going on about your scriptures but it seems you don't know them yourselves. Go read Exodus Chapter 21 Verse 20 and see what your god has to say about slavery and how people should treat their slaves . . . and then, once you've wiped all the egg off your face then edit your post and correct it. 
Pfffft . . . a bible-basher who knows less about his precious bible than a heretic like me! Whatever next?

sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,286 posts
31 Dec 2014, 19:38
#114
31 Dec 2014, 19:38#114
To believe that only one religion goes to heaven is the same as extreme racism. This is mentality of the dark ages that were filled with religious battles, hanging witches or heuristics (non- believers) who challenged the church. Saying the earth was round or progressing science were deemed as being associated with the devil as it challenged the dogma of heaven in the earth and hell in the ground(of the flat earth). 
Given that their has been thousands of religions since time began, perhaps it is divine inspiration. Just about every culture of people around the world has religion. This goes back to primitive man and it had its role at a specific time of development.
Modern day thinking is however more evolved and should be more tolerant and enlightened. (basically that their are good people from all religions as their are bad people). The same applies to non-religious. Logic dictates that if their is an afterlife, it will consist of good people from all religions including atheists. Surely the word of God is to be righteous, not just to associate yourself with a religion. (see the parable of the good Samaritan above where Jesus is quoted as saying that to get into heaven it is about being a good person)...
That is the problem with Bible Bashers. They want to push their own agenda. By telling others they are not going to heaven, it gives them a false security that they are increasing their changes of getting into heaven. "They are spreading the word of God". 
It just so happens that every other religion is wrong, and their one is right.....
Before people could read and write and think for themselves it is understandable. Not in 21st century. 
GE
generaltitPro3,164 posts
31 Dec 2014, 19:59
#115
31 Dec 2014, 19:59#115
Rooinek

I'm expecting you...strangely I understand your frustration with so-called bible bashers and false christians...I was the same and probably worse...until I saw Jesus on the cross and fully understood the message.

The slave trader recognised his terrible deeds, aka as sins and saw the horror of them...and changed...he saw the truth that are indeed ugly, horrible, cruel, unfeeling and self gaining because Christ is like a mirror that reflects these things in comparison to our ugly deeds...He penetrated his  heart...his inner being and soul and conscience (if you like)...He does this with us human beings whether the degree of our evilness is only slight or terrible...sometimes for a person that leads a very bad life, it is more glaring and easier to see ...self righteous people struggle to see it often...but this applies to all of us to a greater or lesser degree case because we all fall short.

The really simple point is that he took a life changing decision...a quality decision acknowledged his dreadful deeds, renounced, turned his back on them and accepted Christ's forgiveness and made another quality decision to follow his new found Redeemer. He turned around and denounced his slavery acts, never went back to them and did good to his fellowman and served God...like the L es Miserables story if you have read it...some people struggle with this concept of change and find it hard to believe, especially those that have been badly hurt and damaged in their upbringing. I have sympathy with those people because I also was a victim of bitterness and cynicalism.

That's available to all of us if we are truly honest, including you.

I know you don't like me and we're crossed swords before...I certainly don't hate you

and I know you will be scornful and belittle me but it is only through Christ that I can pray for you...whether you like it or not, I know He is greater than any man and acknowledges prayers.

Rooinek have a very good year and I wish and your loved the very best.

I've changed and agree with you that I should have been more respectful and well behaved than I was in the past.

Have a good one.
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
31 Dec 2014, 20:13
#116
31 Dec 2014, 20:13#116
You bible bashers all seem to speak the same language.......you sound indoctrinated.  
GE
generaltitPro3,164 posts
31 Dec 2014, 21:04
#117
31 Dec 2014, 21:04#117
...and just to clarify God NEVER condones evil, slavery, greed, adultery, lying,cruelty, dishonesty, violence...todays world is run by these factors.

There is less freedom today in the individual than ever before...financial slavery in every country...the so called freedom countries have enslaved us to the power of the dollar...a country that claims to christian yet messes the power of trading by manipulation...in Russia today the USA govt, rouble has lost nearly 40% of it's value...why, because the USA fears Russia and wants to cripple their military power under the false cloak of world protection controls world economies...even Mozart who is a fairly knowledgeable guy cannot probably see it...I see it because my wife is in Moscow looking after her very frail and ill mother in a very freezing climate...I said she must go...I miss her greatly...her money in Russia has halved in value...I don't hate Americans but their politicians are much worst than Putin, and Zuma multiplied ...enslavers to systems, tolls, invasion on the internet, enticing and deceiving cookies, adverts and the list goes on and on...high pressure sales, stocks and bond and currency manipulation...wars to boost economy in metal and armanents...that publics never bother to understand...the self-centred about enjoying life at the cost of the weak...the list will go on and on...far too many issues of wickedness , deception lies and evilness.

The world continues to enjoy itself, and like Nero plays with the fiddle while Rome burns.

God hates this it is terrible but it suffers it because He loves man...the system is totally corrupt but it has woven itself into all societies whether West or East.

God never condoned slavery or apartheid especially... Rooinek...that's a lie but it
was part of a system no worst than what we have today...open your eyes people.

He tolerates it instead of completely destroying us, which we globally deserve...in the hope that we turn to Him for life, goodness and salvation. The wars throughout history took many lives and hurt people , economies and the way of life badly.

It's not God's fault...He has given us freedom of thought and actions...what we sow what we  reap...mercy is still shown...He dallies because He wants us to turn from our wicked and corrupt ways...He does intervene ...Hitler should have won the war...but He delivered us...our combined victory was divine intervention to carry on and the final stage is that good won't destroy evil ...but we continue in the name of democracy to create a subtle but different but no lesser evil...we all are responsible but some of us blame God...the real problem is we are becoming blind and immune to evil...we now call evil good and good evil...  
RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
31 Dec 2014, 23:15
#118
31 Dec 2014, 23:15#118
 Substantialbull, did you even bother to read the extract I pointed you to? God sounds like he's pretty comfortable with the concept of slavery if your "good" book is to be believed . . . or don't you believe this particular passage from the bible . . . "if a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a result,  he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property."
Now please, spare me your usual "Rooinek doesn't like me" bleating and address the issue. The passage above is from your precious bible and any fair-minded person would agree that God is condoning slavery. So why are you calling slavery an "evil" if your god doesn't agree with you? Huh? Do you agree with your god that slavery is okay (as long as you don't beat the slave to death) or are you saying he's wrong when it comes to the topic of slavery?
GE
generaltitPro3,164 posts
31 Dec 2014, 23:27
#119
31 Dec 2014, 23:27#119
You mean Old Testament...under the Ancient Mosiac Law...not God's perfect law but a man's law given by Moses, an imperfect man...ancient times laws were very harsh by todays standards...that's how I understand it...the law cannot save you...the letter kills but the Spirit of God gives life...that's why the Christ had to come to fulfill the law.

Exodus 21:12-21 God, who by his providence gives and maintains life, by his law protects it. A wilful murderer shall be taken even from God's altar. But God provided cities of refuge to protect those whose unhappiness it was, and not their fault, to cause the death of another; for such as by accident, when a man is doing a lawful act, without intent of hurt, happens to kill another. Let children hear the sentence of God's word upon the ungrateful and disobedient; and remember that God will certainly requite it, if they have ever cursed their parents, even in their hearts, or have lifted up their hands against them, except they repent, and flee for refuge to the Saviour. And let parents hence learn to be very careful in training up their children, setting them a good example, especially in the government of their passions, and in praying for them; taking heed not to provoke them to wrath. Through poverty the Israelites sometimes sold themselves or their children; magistrates sold some persons for their crimes, and creditors were in some cases allowed to sell their debtors who could not pay. But man-stealing, the object of which is to force another into slavery, is ranked in the New Testament with the greatest crimes. Care is here taken, that satisfaction be made for hurt done to a person, though death do not follow. The gospel teaches masters to forbear, and to moderate threatenings, Eph 6:9, considering with Job, What shall I do, when God riseth up? Job 31:13,14.

Verses 20, 21. - Homicide of slaves. In most ancient states the slave was the absolute property of his master, and might be ill-used to any extent, even killed, without the law in any way interfering. It is said that the state of things was different in Egypt (Kalisch); but we have scarcely sufficient evidence on the point to be certain that the slave enjoyed there any real and efficient protection. At Athens, beyond a doubt, the law protected the life of the slave; and a very moderate amount of ill-treatment entitled a slave to bring an action. At Rome, on the contrary, "the master could treat the slave as he pleased, could sell him, punish him, and put him to death" (Dict. of Greek & Roman Antiq. p. 1036). And this was the ordinary state of the law, particularly in Oriental countries. The Mosaic legislation must be regarded as having greatly ameliorated the condition of the native slave population. Hebrew bondmen it placed nearly upon a par with hired servants (Leviticus 20:40); foreign slaves, whether prisoners taken in war, or persons bought in the market, it protected to a very great extent. By the law given in verses 26, 27, it largely controlled the brutality of masters, who had to emancipate their slaves if they did them any serious injury. By the law laid down in verse 20, it gave their lives the same protection, or nearly the same, as the lives of freemen. "Smiting "was allowed as a discipline, without which slavery cannot exist; but such smiting as resulted in death was, as a general rule, punishable like any other homicide. The only exception was, if the slave did not die for some days (ver. 21). In that case the master was considered not to have intended the slave' s death, and to be sufficiently punished by the loss of his property. Verse 20. - If a man smite his servant, or his maid. "Maids" would commonly be chastised by their mistress, or by an upper servant acting under the mistress' s authority. "A man" here means "any one." With a rod. The rods wherewith Egyptian slaves were chastised appear upon the monuments. They were long canes, like those used by our schoolmasters. Under his hand. Criminals in the East are said often to die under the bastinado; and even in our own country there have been cases of soldiers dying under the lash. A special delicacy of the nervous system will make a punishment of the kind fatal to some, which would have been easily borne by others.
RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
01 Jan 2015, 00:00
#120
01 Jan 2015, 00:00#120
 I see, so you think that copying and pasting more drivel is going to make the question go away?
You guys love to quote the scriptures but when they show your god up in a bad light then it's always because of translation or interpretave issues . . . and as for your implication that we should apply different standards and values for ancient and modern times, does that mean god was wrong and had to update his own outdated views?
You can waffle and dodge all you like, if you believe the bible then you believe that god condoned slavery. . . and the passage above is not the only instance where he sanctions it.
If my comments upset you then perhaps you should think about posting your mealy-mouthed and preachy little platitudes on some happy clappy website and not on a rugby forum . . . as I've asked you several times before. 
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