How many planets in the Milky Way?

No Moffie, you drunken old fool, I'm not dodging any question.

I've answered your question about "starting from nothing" despite my reservations about discussing science or physics with someone who is so fundamentally stupid that he thinks the measurement of a day is based on the speed that the sun rotates on its axis.

The only person dodging a question that's been asked three times already is you. I'll ask it for a 4th time, what was it that generations of people have "poured over the bible"?

Rooi

Easy.

The Selfish Gene.

I could ask you. How often do you read anything about evolution that takes influences outside of our atmosphere into account? I not talking about radiation either.

Sure, evolution is said to be a process that will occur in different conditions, anywhere. The only requirement is replicators and an environment for them to be passed down generations. 

But the link between evolution on this planet and its potential influence from outside is only mentioned very rarely. 

Panspermia is generally only discussed in terms of being a catalyst. 

On that, try to find a lecture on how prolonged periods of panspermia affect local microorganisms. You'll find it's slim pickings.

Thinking about how invasive species can dominate indigenous ones, I'd say it should be relatively important.

Outside of that, it'll be up to you to show that what I'm saying is wrong. Not the other way around ;)

Plum, just so we're clear, I believe that there are billions of planets out there that have life and in every single one of those cases that life would have evolved to what it is today and is still evolving to what it will be in the future. I just don't think anything could evolve (or live for that matter) in a vacuum.

I'm not sure if you and I are bumping heads on the word "vacuum". Do you mean a physical vacuum as in the absence of any matter or do you mean "evolving in a vacuum" as in evolving in isolation?

If it's the former then I question your understanding of the Selfish Gene.

Moffie reduced to asking the same question Baboon-ou has asked so many times that I've answered countless times.

One more time . . . I have never said that anything was ever created from nothing or evolved from nothing . Not once.

Now Moffie, do I have to ask you the same question a 5th time?

Shark

No. That's not what I said. 

I said, the one very important part, where man's brain went from primitive and ape like and small, to the one we know today...that part is missing. 

The part where our brains tripped in size to that of any of our predecessors or closest evolutionary relatives.i

Since it's chronologicaly the closest to our present state, isn't it odd that we can't find just one of the transitional examples, of which there should be very many of.

To evolve a large AND functional brain would have required a lot of time and a large population. But where is the fossil record o f that profound species creating change. 

Because that's what we are. A new species. The biggest difference...our brain.

So, there are plenty of examples of man's evolution in the fossil record. All the way from small apes to larger bipedal hominids. But the part the truly separates us from the other animals, that part is still missing.

Haha Rooi

I mean a figurative vacuum. Like un-influenced. IE I'm not sure that evolution on earth was not influenced by species from elsewhere...either single celled or ET like.

Lol dude. I was wondering what was going on.

Rooi 

Just to be difficult. AI can "live" and "evolve" in what WE would consider a vacuum. 

;)

Plum, people that study psychology learn about the evolution of the human brain. It has certainly been evolving over the last 5 million years or so. The human brain has gradually increased in size over the last 5 million years, and it has become more advanced over time. 

This article covers the origins of the brain on earth, with its first origins around 1/2 billion years ago in primitive animals like reptiles. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_the_brain

Mammals brains have evolved to have a Cerebral Cortex. Mammals also happen to be the newest life form on earth. Some life forms are older, but their brains have not adapted as much. 

http://www.brainfacts.org/ask-an-expert/how-does-the-human-brain-differ-from-that-of-other-primates

For starters, our brains weigh an average of three pounds, which is enormous for an animal of our body size. By comparison, chimpanzees, our closest living relatives, have brains that are one-third the size of our own, although they are very similar to us in body size. Most of this brain-size difference reflects the evolutionary expansion of the association cortex, a group of regions that supports such sophisticated cognitive functions as language, self-awareness, and problem solving.

Plum, it was clear from your first post about "not in a vacuum " that you were referring to outside interference (ET) in the evolution of man and the rest of the planet. (Not God like Rooi thought you might be implying) Outside manipulation would explain the jumps in the fossil record as well as the rumors of "gods" and "angels" ...the whole point in this thread was to contemplate that we are not alone.

 And that if that is the case, then the law of averages should put us somewhere in the middle of the last third of development (our system is just over a third the age of the rest oc the universe) ...Moz, you can do a proper calc of the probabilities, not my thing.

...That would mean that we as a planet (and solar system) could be an "ant farm" in the backroom of some millenial equivalent ET in some super advanced civilization. ..I am with you and I can go on for days on the subject.

It also mean that the universe should be crawling with life and probes and Voyager like missions....and AI and robots...fun stuff!

PS...the "We" in the Bible can be due to a few things...the Trinity, God and the angels...there are simply not enough info to really know. ...just a silly book by a few goat herds? Nope. ...and I'm not even going to start on the Sanskrit. ..lots of material.

Plum, I skipped over a couple of points of logic for brevity, but if I read you right, you know what I mean?? We should start a new thread  this one got hijacked by religion and anti-religion ...part of the subject, but not at the center.  I read an interesting lecture by Hawking on the subject...Atheists at heart, but he asked a couple of uncomfortable questions for Atheists.

Rooi and Shark, for clever, un-indoctrinated, you are either lazy or too narrow minded for the discussion.  

What's 1 percent of 4 billion Draad?

40 million!!!

So a civilisation 1% of a third of the universe's age ahead of us would be...I can't even!

By outside influence, I was aiming at all possibilities. From a colony of bacteria to ET. What bout solar flares and asteroid impacts?

Just a bacteria that had evolved somewhere else landing here and taking foot in earth's ecosystem, could have ridiculous consequences. Other microbes might have no way to defend against it and it could either have no effect, reset everything or change ecosystems drastically and permanently.

Shark, you're in the camp of "anything to do with ET = nut house material"?

@Plum, no I do believe in alien life. However, I do not believe they are anywhere near us. I do not believe any abduction claims, as 99% of them are the red necks within America.

There is no real evidence of visits from extra-terrestrial people, except perhaps the pyramids which is the hardest thing to explain from a pre-industrial technology society. However, the pyramids were probably built using the earth's magnetic energy- rather than aliens.

The amino acid may well be from comets, and while they are the building blocks of life- they are not living in themselves.So it is pretty immaterial if they are from the Earth and elsewhere. 

"Says the Sunday school simpleton.... I suppose you know someone that has been abducted by an alien. 

You suppose too much you narrow minded arse. 

Draad, my inclination to debate these kind of matters with a simpleton like you is about as strong as my desire to debate them with the doddering old fool who thinks a day is measured by the speed at which the sun rotates on its axis.

I mean that in the nicest possible way.

Rooi and Shark

My intention was not to punt ETs. Though, I think you're ruling out the possibility of influence from them on faith or out of stubbornness more than reason. 

A civilisation with the ability to travel at 25% the speed of light, could colonize most of the milky way in 50 million years.

In terms of the age of the universe, that's not very long at all. Even if it weren't possible to travel at a quarter of the speed of light, the Milky Way might still be colonised by a slower moving group over say, 500 million years.

Also, why is that you guys assume our current technology is the best we'll ever do or the best anybody has ever done? That is what you are assuming when put forward that space is too vast to traverse.

As for motivation. The one example we have, humans, will start colonising space as soon as we can and unless someone stops us, we will continue to do so indefinitely. It's what life does.

And when we find life, will we leave it alone or impose our will on it? When have we ever not done the latter?

The last hundred years have seen us make massive strides in technology. Where might the next ten thousand or million year see us? 

There was a time when humans didn't understand electricity. Then we did. Now it's nothing special. I can build a generator in my garage. Same with nuclear technology. Same with the simple steam engine. Same with boat propellers. They're a mystery until they aren't. They're impossible until they're mundane.

Sure, we might kill ourselves off. Nine out of ten civilisations might suffer similar fates. But you have to accept that not all civilisations are doomed. 

It's also reasonable to assume that some civilisations might simply have evolved in environments and under selective pressures which saw them average at 200IQ points. How quickly would they advance? What about an average IQ of 500?

Yes but those are all very tiny odds. Miniscule. Impossible even, right? 

How many species are on earth? 1.3 Million. And yet, here we are. With our huge brains, iPhones and bad backs. 

We live on a water enveloped rock orbiting a giant nuclear fireball at thousands of KM/h, which itself is orbiting a giant black hole along with billions of other fireballs and rocks, all inside of a vacuum filled mostly with dark matter which we can't even detect...and you guys wanna rule out a possibility based on the "sheer size" of it all?

I'm keeping my options open because a s far as I can tell, life is an expert at beating the odds and surprising us.

Rooi

The flood myth. From India, to Greece and Sumerian history as well as China, Norway and even Australia, the story is quite consistent and it talks about a God warning a man about a flood. The flood kills most living things on earth. 

In most cases the man is ordered to build a boat so as to survive the waters, which are brought down as some sort of retribution.

Usually the god/s regret the action t hat was carried out. A promise is made after the flood. A promise which has to date been kept

There are three options here...

1) The flood survivors recount the story similarly because building a boat is the only hero narrative possible during a flood.

2) There were God's that caused the flood and to some degree the events occurred as stated.

3) None of it occurred and the story was spread by a group able to influence the culture of societies around the planet.

The fact is that we now know a that a flood did occur.

We also know that if that  many witnesses with no known connection to each other testified so similarly against you in court, you'd probably be found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

People that dismiss religion or outside influence of some type need to explain these types of situations.

Any thoughts?

Rooi

Here...

https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/677046

Then there is also this impact crater in Greenland. I posted it on an another thread some months ago...

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/11/massive-crater-under-greenland-s-ice-points-climate-altering-impact-time-humans

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/2018/11/14/greenland-crater-discovered-cause-younger-dryas/#.XKMe7nPRYfE