An Apartheid Squatter Campaign in Pretoria

“  Posted by: sharkbok (11579 posts)

If the IQ voting process had started in the 1960s, the smartest black people like Mandela, Mbeki and everyone else, could easily have made the requirement of 90 IQ. 

Many whites would not make this... “

It is time for you to stop digging mate. There could not have been IQ voting. It is probably the worst form of discrimination you can think of. No blacks or at best very few of them would have passed your benchmark. There simply were no tests available to fairly test them. 

Let me make this clear right now. I am by no means saying that they were stupid. Some of the wisest people that I have met in my life were old black men. 

This may be long winded but bear with me. My brother in law found a way to have an excellent rapport with his black farm workers. It was amazing to witness the mutual respect and even friendship. The old folk on the farm approached him and said that they had an idea to help him discipline the younger workers because, in their own view, the young ones were getting out of hand and did not pull their weight.

They suggested that they return to the traditional Mapedi ways. They introduced a Lahotla, a traditional court of law, based on the Bapedi culture. It was nothing but a court and you would be amazed at how closely it resembled our western courts. It was unbelievably to hear them argue the cases. They had their prosecutors and the accused had his defence council. They called witnesses and cross examined like you wouldn’t believe. I listened to them deliberate verdicts and sentencing. Would any of those people have scored over 80 in a western IQ test? Not a chance. I saw the same in Sekhukuhne land. I have had many chats with elders over there. 

To get to some names that you have mentioned. Mandela, as a young shepherd boy, that he was, would not have scored much on those IQ tests, yet he studied, got a law degree and became a practicing lawyer. Mbeki studied Economics in London. As a youngster he was expelled from school in rural eastern Cape. It is unlikely that he would have scored high on those IQ tests. Is he stupid? No ways. After being expelled he was home schooled in Johannesburg and did his A levels and when his family went into exile he studied Economics, as I said. His brother, Moloetsi, is a well known writer and political analyst and also a fierce critic of the ANC. Not sure whether he still harbours those sentiments. 

To reiterate, the tests that were available were tests developed by universities based on international standards and adapted for white South Africans. To do it for black kids would have required black academics with an intimate knowledge of the black culture, language and idiom. Remind us again how many black nations and different black languages there are in SA again. The black academics, let me remind you again, were not interested in developing those test batteries. 

Your IQ plan is more dead on arrival than the Government of National Unity.  

Out of curiosity, without Googling, what do you know about IQ tests and compiling and interpreting them?

What can you remember about the IQ test/s that you have done? 

I say again, voting eligibility, based on IQ is probably more discriminatory than skin colour. 

My guess is that the first ones to start bitching and moaning the minute you introduce IQ to determine voter eligibility would be the virtue signalling leftie luvies.

FFS, they would give their cats and dogs the right to vote if it would help them. 

Shark,

High IQs find their strongest roots in experiential learning.

Stupid stuff like seeing a nut and bolt screwed together, selecting the correct colour to depict an image, managing a resource, listening to conversations where some words are beyond your present vocabulary. Stuff that naturally happened for white kids in homes with educated parents. 

And even then, whites and blacks evolved in very different climates with contrasting selective pressures. Blacks hunted small agile animals and provisioning wasn't necessary, due to climate, in long term format so was never selected for. Hence tons of fast twitch muscle fibre and seemingly poor planning/provisining ability. Easy climates where a bonfire and single animal skin will see you through winter, has been shown time and time again to result in populations of lesser planning ability.

Whites, from frozen countries hunted larger animals and needed to provision for long cold winters. If you and your family could not ration and plan...you were done. Every season had a red line drawn under it. To end up up above it your life needed to be regimented and goal driven.

Now, take those two populations and try an apply an equal IQ test to them.

There's a thousand reasons why your IQ test idea won't work. The above is just one.

So, as the left always does, you come up with an idea that is actually no help at all. In fact, the opposite.

Cera's idea, which I'v also mentioned here numerous times, is a way better one. 

Transfer of knowledge. It a) teaches what universities often can't b) is focused c) it builds relationships and d) can be adapted to the intelligence level of the learner since there is a personal relationship that developes.

EG With farms, they should have used a mentorship program. One that could have bled through to all industries surrounding farming too. 10 candidates, the best two will receive farming land. The others perhaps being workers or minor shareholders in the venture. That way, the new farm owner earned his land though being the best of his classmates, received the correct training and he has a relationship with his mentor, one which he can lean on in the future for advice. That's how you share understanding and build communities.

And here is why PC culture is fucking black people over. It's forcing the idea that everyone is exactly the same. In so doing, it's preventing black people from tackling what has historically been their biggest weak point. 

Go look at the UK educational stats this year. You find black school boys underperforming...consistently. 

But everyone is equal so it's not an inherent biological issue that requires correcting...it's the rest of society that is broken.

Imagine, saying that black school boys must all take a subject called Planning from junior through to high school. An actually useful skill that will see them considering future outcomes more frequently and for the rest of their lives.. Everyone knows it will be a benefit. 

But because of your friends at the BBC and their pandering buddies in politics, nobody dares makes a suggestion like this. They want power and it's got nothing to do with uplifting communities.

IE More harm than good. 

“ Posted by: sharkbok (11582 posts)

In the first instance, Ceradynes idea was tested- and it did not work.  “

Aahhhhhhh. Now we are slowly starting to make progress. 

Maybe now would be a good time to return to my first remark. The one that kicked off this discourse. 

“ Maybe there was some truth in the notion that the best way forward was a gradual program of mentoring in both the private and public service sectors. 

Instead it was a jump in, free for all exercise, kicking out whites, and Afrikaners in particular, left right and centre. Handing out top jobs for connected cadres. That is apart from those whites who decided on sucking up and brown nosing for hand out positions.  “

It wasn’t kicked to the kerb because it was a crap idea. It never came to fruition because of the absolute and total lack of political will, together with the absolute hunger for power and maybe even revenge that was responsible for the failure. 

The ANC cadres was in no way interested in shared responsibility and learning. For them it was a matter of fit in or fuck off. “It is our way or the high way. You will teach us what you have learned the hard way or you can go.”

This land redistribution BS, for one, could have been solved ages ago. White farmers were willing and even offered to assist the government to mentor black farmers in agricultural financial management, land management, etc. And they still are. They have nothing against black farmers. They have are against the govt’s handling of the issue. 

My late brother in law’s neighbour initiated a little scheme. He and a black guy had a chat one day and long story short, they approached the govt with a proposal. Government assist the black man, through the Landbank to buy a 50% share in his farm with the option of expending his shareholding and eventually buying the entire farm. The two of them would then, under a joint venture agreement, jointly run the farm with the white farmer being a mentor for the black guy. 

That worked out exactly as planned and today that black man is the proud owner of a success farming setup and an accomplished farmer himself. When the white guy decided that it was time to retire, the black guy literally begged him to retain a small portion of shares because he was concerned that it would mean the end of their friendship. They are still friends. The white guy living in Brits, the last I heard and the black happily and successfully farming his own land. Compare that to what happened with Zebediela. 

My father in law passed away at the end of 2000. There was a land claim on one part of one of the farms. More was added and by the time of his death the claims escalated to all their land. That gives you an idea of how long ago the claims process started. When he passed away, the land went to my brother in law. He passed away in 2012. His youngest son is now managing the farms and still, to this day, there is no clarity on the issue. Two decades later. 

You think IQ based voter eligibility is going to solve anything? 

“  If someone like Mandela can teach themselves law in prison- they are smart. “

You are digging yourself in deeper and deeper. Mandela didn’t teach himself law in prison. I’ve told you. You know less than you thing you know. I said Mandela got a law degree and he was a practicing lawyer. He was a already a lawyer before he was captured. That was my entire point that I was making right from the beginning. As a youngster, he would not have scored high on the available IQ tests. I explained to you why, and so did Plum. Under your plan he, most possibly, would not have been able to vote,  YET he was bright enough to gain entry into university and got his law degree from Fort Hare, as far as I remember, and he became a lawyer. In other words he got his degree and completed his internship. 

Biography of Nelson Mandela – Nelson Mandela Foundation

Numbers govern these things......there was no way to stop the numbers. The only slim opportunity lay in a Botswana type solution of essentially undoing the Union. But it would have required massive transferring of property, the whole of PE, that would never have flown in the climate that existed in those days.

South Africa was too successful   to be left to it’s own devices in a Continent of Failure. 

Persuading  the ANC leadership to go for excellence, to  fight for law and order....to make South Africa the example,  rather than the biggest failure of the anti Colonial movement was the slim hope. But the ANC leaders were not intellectually linked to the West.

Very tough on the people......all those horrible scenes at airports as families got blown apart.

Cera

Lefty totalitarianism only pretends to understand what community building is.

Cooperation, in their world view, is a top down business, not a shoulder to shoulder one. No thanks.

Shark doesn't understand true value of diversity either. Here's a clue, it's got nothing to do with exclusionsism.

And never mind the ridiculous idea of declaring to people that they're free but unfortunately too dumb to vote. Good luck with that conversation. Tell me how the lynching goes

Shark, even in more stable situations, I'd still not back your plan. I've never read about anybody trying it either. Perhaps they have, hasn't caught on though. And it' s not a revolutionary idea. In other words, I'm quite sure it's been well considered previously but decided against.

@SB. Last one first because you are now nitpicking.

Correct. He didn’t finish his law law degree as Fort Hare, but I did say as far as I can remember. I was talking from memory. But after dropping out of Fort Hare....

To continue his higher education, Mandela signed up to a University of South Africacorrespondence course, working on his bachelor's degree at night.[45]

and.....

After he passed his BA exams in early 1943, Mandela returned to Johannesburg to follow a political path as a lawyer rather than become a privy councillor in Thembuland.[50] He later stated that he experienced no epiphany, but that he "simply found [himself] doing so, and could not do otherwise."

By the time of his capture in 1962 and his sentencing in 1963/4, it was twenty years after finishing his law degree. 

“ Like I mentioned, your idea has been tried in other African countries. “

Which ones? 

“ It was pointless following this approach after Apartheid.   “

Uhmm really? Now explain to us how you would put such an approach to the test , prior to end of Apartheid. I mean proper Apartheid. Not the pseudo Apartheid of the De Klerk era. I say that because the De Klerk era was virtually the start of the test process, so to speak. You may probably even view it as the first stage of the “co-existing” process, if you could call it that. 

At that stage everybody were all bright eyed and bushy tailed. All in to work together and try this mentoring thing. Before the great post 1994 kicking out left right and centre started. 

“  Christianity is more about centralisation and having a King than Democracy and Capitalism. “

I was thinking of a polite way to put this. The best I can come up with is...... hahaha. 

And just to add to ou Sharkie’s misery:

Mandela and Tambo was a South African law firm established by Nelson Mandela and Oliver Tambo in Johannesburg in late 1952. It was the first "Attorney Firm" in the country to be run by black partners.[1]

In August 1952, Mandela had opened his own firm[2]:210 but, after just several months, he invited Tambo to join him in the establishment of Mandela and Tambo in two small rooms at Chancellor House, the building housing the headquarters of the African National Congress. The firm was inundated with clients seeking redress from acts of the oppressive apartheid regime. In South Africa, "Attorney Firms" would deal with lay clients directly and draft most of the paperwork, and "instruct" an Advocate, either practising independently or in-house with the firm, to plead before the Court. Tambo would do much of the paperwork in the office whilst Mandela did most of the advocacy before the magistrates in the courts opposite.[2]:212

Later others joined the firm, including Duma Nokwe, Ruth Mompati, Mendi Msimang and Godfrey Pitje.[3]

The firm was closed down in 1960 as Mandela faced charges of treason and Tambo fled the country. The building was later gutted by fire and was an urban slum for many years[4]before being completely refurbished and opened as a museum and archive in 2011.[5]

Mandela and Tambo were personally reunited in an emotional private meeting in Stockholm in March 1990.[6]

Something to be said for the clemency of a justice system that allowed the Terrorist whose bombs  killed people to complete a legal degree (the irony) during his prison sentence.

The mental gymnastics that equated this man  with Gandhi  are remarkable 

Biography of Nelson Mandela – Nelson Mandela Foundation

“  Posted by: sharkbok (11585 posts)

Ceradunce, I am not worried about some Trivial Pursuit question about Mandela, especially as you have spent the last 2 hours researching this. “

Don’t do as I do, do as I say, not so? Have you forgotten that you actually started the Trivial Pursuit when you “debunked” my assertion that Mandela completed his law degree prior to his imprisonment? 

“ The crux of my argument is that Mandela was a smart person that should not have suffered under Apartheid.  “

Great. So at least we are in agreement there. That was actually what I was trying to say. Had he done an IQ test as a boy, it would have labelled him as “unintelligent” while he clearly wasn’t, having completed a law degree and obviously passing the necessary entry exams to be admitted as a practicing lawyer. 

Can you now, at least, understand what I was trying to illustrate? That there was no way that you could have introduced this utopian idea of yours of discrimination based upon “intelligence”. 

As for his suffering under Apartheid, there is a hell of a lot to be argued about that and I’m not scared to go there. I just think that it would just ruin this discussion. Welcome to start another thread if you really want to. Fact is that he was found guilty of terrorist activities under proper and current  domestic legislation at the time. He had many opportunities to be freed from prison but remained in prison by choice. AFAIK, he was removed from the USA list of terrorists long after his release from prison, allowing him to enter the USA. Could even have been after 1994. Haven’t checked yet. 

“  Ultimately capitalism is about getting the best people into the best jobs, so having an IQ system of voting would help ensure this. “

One question. Which capitalistic country do you see introducing that shit?

I honestly cannot believe that you are still pursuing this with a straight face. 

Hall Of Fame

8890 posts

“  Posted by: sharkbok (11585 posts)

“ The crux of my argument is that Mandela was a smart person that should not have suffered under Apartheid.  “

Great. So at least we are in agreement there. That was actually what I was trying to say. Had he done an IQ test as a boy, it would have labelled him as “unintelligent” while he clearly wasn’t, having completed a law degree and obviously passing the necessary entry exams to be admitted as a practi

cing lawyer. 

Mozart, I agree that IQ is not the be-all and end-all.

An example is William James Sidis who is believed to have had the smartest known IQ ever, around 225, but achieved almost nothing with his life. (relative to his IQ anyway). 
He died in debt, and worked in menial jobs most of his life, and was almost sent to jail.

https://www.npr.org/2011/01/23/132737060/meet-william-james-sidis-the-smartest-guy-ever

Look what Einstein achieved with a comparatively meagre IQ of 165-170. 

IQ is just an estimate, but it is the most objective way of measuring potential. Bill Gates and Steve Jobs, for example, are estimated to have an IQ the same as Einstein. 

Not many people with low IQ's of say 80 have achieved much in commercial terms, however, maybe some have in sport. 

The IQ voting system would probably be unacceptable today, but if it was introduced in the 1950's - or even long before this it would have been a better way of colonising a country. Develop to smartest indigenous people and help them become part of a dominant middle class - and this would have broken down racial divisions to some extent. 

Apartheid just put off tomorrows problems, until it was too late - and then a revolution happened. As soon as it was one man, one vote - it was toast for the "former" colonials.

Third world countries and especially Africa have a very high rate of children to one parent- which is a large part of the social, economic and political problems.
The last SA president (ZUMA) had more than 20 children which isn't a socially workable solution in the 21st century, where they can no longer be free farm workers for parents. 

Shark,

You are talking about 1950 as though it was yesterday. Wasn't the US still segregated back then too? 

Equality under the law is exactly what it says on the box. Voting is a human right and fundamental to that equality. The struggle for freedom is basically synonymous with the fight to vote.

Limiting a human right on grounds outside of the individual's control = violation of human rights.

And your assumption is that smarter people would vote more itelligently. 

Have a look at the chart I posted regarding US states and their average IQs. They're well above your low limit yet voted for someone that, according to you and your gaggle, is corrupt, dumb and a poor leader.

So what next...

Only people with PHDs can vote?

You are obviously not a problem solver. What you are attempting to do is to solve a problem that exists within a tiny sliver of the population IE politicians by modifying all the rest of the population. 

It's much more realistic to put rules in place which will ensure politicians receive no outside benefit as a result of holding a particular office. Similar to the way a nun, cop, nurse and many other professions operate. They know they'll never be millionaires. Create regulations that ensure a politician is in it to serve and nothing more. And audit the living shit of their lives from the start of their career until they die.

Solve the problem at origin. 

Poor old sharktwit he is as thick as a plank, dumb as a rock. 

According to this hoot if something increases by 2% a year in thirty years it will result in a 60 increase!!!!

Obviously the clown had a socialist education and never learned about compound interest. Thankfully the marxist idiot left SA! 

Sorry you lost sharktwit. As President Trump said and as extreme left wing Marxist Bernie found out, the USA will never the a socialist/Marxist state. You communist nutjobs are being crushed.

Yes look how your communist pals did in Zimbabwe and here in SA. 

S America has turned dharply Right. 

Your CCP scumbag friends have turned the countries of the world against communist dictators

Everywhere you twits are losing. 

I moan about the weakness in the Rand from a rugby point of view but how well have my overseas investments done!

Anybody rejoicing in the misfortunes of the people of Zimbabwe or people in SA are sick. It is a tragedy that the marxist ANC has been so racist and so incompetent. Run properly there is more than enough in South Africa for all to prosper but you communist have fouled up as you ALWAYS  do. 

What a profoundly stupid dumbas poor sharktwit is!!! 

@SB. 

I don’t know what happened. This is now the second post that I have discovered which didn’t submit. 

So here goes before I’m being accused of cowardice again:

Why would Mandela do badly in an IQ test as a kid? 

This sums up why you were lost in this argument ages ago... 

And frankly, it is pointless to discuss this as you are compromised by presumptions- many shaped by religion and Apartheid South Africa.

Good heavens. Haven’t you been paying attention or are you just battling to comprehend what I said right from the start of this argument. I’m not going to entertain you by going all over everything. Just scroll up. It is there. There are no presumptions. All of it backed by fact. I have given you the facts. On what authority, bar your own biased prejudice, do you dispute what I have said. 

I am sure that there would be black kids that would beat me in an IQ test at the same age. 

And I have always scored well in IQ tests, despite not doing very well in school. 

Were you in school in SA in the sixties and seventies? 

Although school is like trivial pursuit, as many of the wimps did better - even if they were not smart just because they listened in class, did their homework and studied- unlike many of the surfers.  

IQ has nothing to do with scholastic performance. I have asked you before what you know about IQ tests, and the development and interpretation of them. You haven’t replied because, I guess, you know very little to nothing at all. Of course you can call a friend again. Google.  

IQ is not trivial pursuit. There are lots of ways to test intellect and problem -solving ability.

Correct, there are lots of ways to test intellect and problem solving ability. That is true nowadays. Not so in the times that you wanted them to be used. Unless you want to argue that it is a crap excuse because they could just have given each kid and iPad and gotten them to complete the test. Oh wait.......

Having said that, and since you are so clued up, why don’t you enlighten us as to the availability IQ tests back in the day. 

Remember it has to be IQ tests, because that was your suggested yardstick for deciding voter eligibility. 

Oh, and also remember that the biggest and the most important condition of the Freedom Charter...... One man one vote. That was what they wanted. 

Could you imagine if the whiteys told them: “ No no no, forget one man one vote. It is going to be ‘One man with xx Intelligence Quotient one vote‘ ”. 

You are making rigid generalisation's based on race - e.g. the black man is good at this, and the white man would be good at that. 

Bullshit. I haven’t asserted anything like that. I talked about frames of reference. In effect both Moz and Plum explained it as well. 

One of the major issues with black people is their social and political structure is broken, as most only grow up with only one parent or no parent- 

Exactly. But, and this is important, it was less so in the sixties, seventies and even early eighties in SA. Family values were important. It is not disputed in the least that many black families in SA suffered due to the so-called absent father syndrome. Especially the families of mine- and factory workers, but the fathers were still there. The modern day situation is a different story altogether which calls for a different debate altogether and is not remotely applicable to this discussion. 

...and the politicians are terrible. They have never been able to develop a strong middle-class society and have this run for a few generations to increase their average IQ. 

Once again. You do not understand IQ testing and it shows every time you put your foot into it. 

You are confusing levels of education and IQ. They have nothing to do with each other. And thing is that neither will work as a way of determining voter eligibility. 

Let me try and help you out for the last time. IQ tests, done at the time that you suggest it should have been done, would have discriminated as much as the racial discrimination. It would even have excluded a lot of whites and left you with an even more elitist white electorate. 

If you took babies from all races today and put them 500 years in the future- they could be as smart as people then. 

And your point is?

Your angle is that black people somehow have "different" abilities. Straight out the Bible teachings of the wood carriers. 

You are getting more and more ridiculous the longer this argument goes on. I have never talked about black people having different abilities. I said black and white kids had different frames of reference. Biiiig difference. Abilities are inborn characteristics. Frame of reference has to do with things in the social surroundings of people. To use extreme examples. A person living who has grown up and is living in his own has a very limited frame of reference. Someone born in New York and growing up in New York will have a very broad frame of reference. The person on the island may be vastly more intelligent than the city dweller. You’ll have to test them both to determine and compare their intelligence. 

BUT, you cannot use the same test battery on both of them. You would have to develop a test to test the island guy and only then can you start testing. 

A similar, yet not as extreme, situation existed in SA. The black kids and white kids had vastly different frames of reference. The available tests were tests developed by white academics for white kids. The black academics, once again, were not interested in taking the lead from the white academia to develop tests. It wasn’t important to them. They had bigger fish to fry than doing IQ tests on primary school kids. 

I’m not at all interested in even taking this further unless you want to debate me on that in another way, by debating the arguments without first attacking my age, race, religion, upbringing, education, integrity, etc, etc. 

I think if your generation was given the opportunity- you would just be destined to repeat the same mistake over and over, for the rest of eternity...

Your opinion. A shit one but yours nonetheless. 

South Africa may have been screwed no matter, but you ensured this happened with a lack of vision. 

See my previous remark. 

(And no- a separate thread is not needed to list your charity incidents and Oom Piet, and Jock of the Bushveld etc). 

Fair enough because you will get your arse whipped on that one as well. 

I very much endorse Plum’s idea that the economic payoff for political office needs to be cut off. Take Obama .....he entered office as a man of modest means and is now a purchaser of $10 million plus properties.

That doesn’t come from anything illegal.....but it’s still wrong. It’s also wrong to see the Heads of Intelligence agencies being paid for peddling their knowledge on television. Then you get the more subtle stuff like the Clinton charity.

On the Democratic side in particular, major political office becomes the glass that never empties.

@Moz, I saw a meme saying this:

I’d rather trust a billionaire that becomes a politician than politicians who become millionaires. 

Damn true! What happened to the Harry Truman philosophy:

Upon leaving the presidency, Truman returned to Independence, Missouri, to live at the Wallace home he and Bess had shared for years with her mother.[257] Once out of office, Truman quickly decided that he did not wish to be on any corporate payroll, believing that taking advantage of such financial opportunities would diminish the integrity of the nation's highest office. He also turned down numerous offers for commercial endorsements. Since his earlier business ventures had proved unsuccessful, he had no personal savings.

As a result, he faced financial challenges. Once Truman left the White House, his only income was his old army pension: $112.56 per month (equivalent to $1,076 in 2019).[258]Former members of Congress and the federal courts received a federal retirement package; President Truman himself ensured that former servants of the executive branch of government received similar support. In 1953, however, there was no such benefit package for former presidents, and he received no pension for his Senate service

I didn't know that about Truman, Moz.

Very cool.

"I’d rather trust a billionaire that becomes a politician than politicians who become millionaires."

It seems so obvious, right? Prove to us that you can build something, before we'll consider  giving you a say over the families, businesses and communities that we've built.

Instead it's all down to a popularity contest.

Haha, we're so screwed.

“ Getting "some" educated left-wing socialist people into education and government is important here.  “

@Ceradunce, your whole argument is based on the differing frame of reference of cultures and races. When babies are born they have no frame of reference. So exposure to an environment will create frame of reference. 

Sure black people used to live in mud huts, but they are also exposed to Western civilisation as well. Apartheid did not help with this due to separation, but there was some exposure. So exposure to traditional Western culture means getting the frame of reference- particularly people with higher IQ.

You seem to think that IQ tests are like the Trivial Pursuit the board game. They are not, they try test stuff that people have not learnt - like basic cognitive, mathematical, problem solving and logical ability.

Maths is a universal language. It has no relation to culture. It is a fact, a reality. Astrophysicists like Einstein and Lawrence Krauss are not learning this through human culture, they are learning it through observation and maths deductions. Einstein pretty much rewrote physics- and replaced it with reality. 

If you have 15 coffee cups, it is 15.  It is a mathematic fact. This will not change anywhere in the universe (except maybe a black hole that inverts reality). 

@Ceradunce, not supporting socialism or communism does not make you a capitalist. A capitalist is someone that uses capital to make more capital. 

Just being an employee worker bee is offering your own time as capital, but you are not actually using it to make more capital - as you only get a salary in return. You are not using labour capital or material to resell and make a markup. 

Executives of corporations, company owners and the self-employed are capitalist to varying degrees. 

Someone that is right-wing and works in say Mcdonalds, they are not a capitalist. Or any employee on a respectable average wage for that matter...

"Maths is a universal language. It has no relation to culture. It is a fact, a reality. Astrophysicists like Einstein and Lawrence Krauss are not learning this through human culture, they are learning it through observation and maths deductions. Einstein pretty much rewrote physics- and replaced it with reality."

Facepalm.

Honestly. If you read through that yourself, does it all seem fine? Like no glaring luminous yellow unicorns jumping out at you?

“ So exposure to an environment will create frame of reference.  “ 

Stop digging mate. 

You are correct when you say that an environment will create frame of reference. That is exactly why black and white kids have different frames of reference. Their different social constructs (environments). You make it sound as if it some dodgy concept that I’ve come op with. That is why I keep asking about your knowledge of the subject. That frame of reference, determined by the test subjects’ social environment is your first point of advantage when you start designing a battery to test for intelligence. Glad you are finally starting to come around. 

“ Apartheid did not help with this due to separation, but there was some exposure. “

Exactly. That was what I was trying to get through to you. That was exactly why IQ tests were needed that took those differences (due to racial segregation) into account. That was why the co-operation of Black academia was required so that valid tests could be developed. They (the black academia) were not interested because they reckoned it was unimportant. They were more interested in the tests to measure specific skills, like the ones I mentioned earlier. 

“ but there was some exposure. So exposure to traditional Western culture means getting the frame of reference- particularly people with higher IQ.  “ 

Correct once again. Sadly the exposure  was very little. Too little to negate the big divide. Why do you think that the “white” academia knew about the differences and they learned of it? 

First of all, let me tell you a little about psychometrics. Bear in mind that this is mostly from memory. I haven’t been deeply involved since varsity, bar using some tests for specific purposes. Never got involved in test development in practice. 

Having said that, when testing for intelligence stuff like and personality, you would very seldom use one test only. That was why I kept refering to the term “test battery”. For personality you would use more than one test. You may start off with the most basic, the 16 PF Questionnaire (16 Personality Factor). All the answers are on a nine point scale where you only interpret outliers. In other words you ignore all answers between 3 and 6. If you find that by far the vast majority of answers were 4, 5 and 6, you would used additional tests and if the tendency repeats itself in other tests, you would eventually have to include a thorough personal interview. 

Now, to get back to the IQ issue. Remember that this took place over years of research. The tests for white kids were used and almost without exception the black kids scored low. More different tests were tried and the test subjects were interviewed and it was found the the kids’ intelligence, according to observations during interviews, differed vastly from the test results. The kids were not less intelligent. The tests indicated below 100 readings throughout. Why? They did not take the social and cultural differences into account. 

There were many other differences that many whites did not understand. For instance, many people thought that blacks were rude when they remain seated when approached and addressed by someone. In white culture it was deemed rude. You are supposed to stand up. In their culture it would have been rude and disrespectful to stand up. It was a sign of respect to remain lower than the person approaching you. In white culture a firm grip is required when you great someone. A “soft” handshake is a sign of weakness. In black culture a strong grip is a sign of aggression. A black man enters a door before a woman. Very rude? No. He goes in first to fend off possible threads inside. You see? There were many of these differences. 

In addition it is true that there was “contact” with western culture but, as I said it was very very little. 

I will try to explain it like this. Afrikaans kids had very little contact with English and our use of the English language was pretty crap. Why? As you may remember, SA had two official languages, one of which was English, and we had English as a subject from grade one. Here is the catch. We had no TV, which only arrived in 1976.That meant no direct exposure to English.  (My sons, when they were teenagers, were way way more fluent in English than I was at the same age for that very reason). We did not speak English at home. We did not really listen to English  radio stations. Our parents brought Afrikaans newspapers. My dad, at least, bought both the major Afrikaans and English Sunday papers. Our only real contact with English was in English class at school. That was it. The black kids were in a similar position but had it even worse. Their second language was shared between English and Afrikaans. They listened to neither Afrikaans nor English radio. The Nats were not that crap. The SABC had services in black languages. So, they had no western exposure there either. See what I’m getting at? They really had very little exposure to western culture. 

Now in view of all my ramblings above, let me once again get back to the IQ tests. Despite all of the kinds of differences and drawbacks that I was talking about, there was the other major stumbling block. Language and idiom. It was easy to take English tests, adapt them for SA kids and translate them in Afrikaans. The social construct for the English and Afrikaans kids were virtually the same but that of the black kids were vastly different which necessitated the co-operation of the black academia.

It was not government intervention or the lack thereof that hampered the progress in this field. I am also not even blaming the black academia. They just had other priorities. They weren’t interested to find out how “clever” the kids was. They were more interested to determine which skills the kids had. That was the reality. 

And to be brutally honest I, myself, believed that IQ tests were (and I still believe it) a load of bullshit. WTF does it matter if someone has an IQ of 100 or 160. What does it indicate? I’ll tell you. A person with the 160 IQ may easily get a PhD. With a hell of a lot of hard work and perseverance they guy with the 100 IQ can also get a PhD, so what is the big issue? The only good use of IQ test results is to act as an early warning for severe deficiencies, and then only as an indicator of possible issues. Proper diagnoses require way more intensive testing than an IQ test  

It is more important to test for personally traits, in certain jobs, and for certain inborn skills like the rod and frame test for pilots, etc.

None of my arguments were aimed at trying to rubbish you. That is also not why I asked you about your knowledge about psychometric testing either. I was trying to explain all of this to you to show you why I believe that you were wrong about thinking of using IQ as a benchmark for voter eligibility, especially in early twentieth century South Africa. I knew that you would not understand what I was talking about if you do not have the background knowledge about it. 

I wonder what the chances are that this girl has an IQ of 100+:

?. Rachel has #Downsyndrome.

Cera,

I notice that we differ in terms of the innate strengths and weaknesses of races. Unless i misunderstood. You obviously know more about IQ testing and general intelligence than Shark and I have some questions for you. 

There are measurable differences between the physiologies of different races. Even between sub-groups within races, there are clear differences. For example, Bushmen and people from E ast Africa. 

Let's use Shark's ridiculous example of mathematics. We know, that the conscious mathematics pales in comparison to the reflex mathematics being carried out behind the scenes in our brains.

Take a seven year old child. His conscious mathematics is just about capable of times tables. His reflex math, that enabling him to walk, catch and navigate 3d space...is already beyond what any adult mathematics PHD can consciously achieve. And that gap never decreases. In fact, as the kid grows up and refines his locomotive and navigational ability, the gap between foreground and background mathematical ability increases further.

All of this is just to illustrate that there is a spectrum of innate mathematical ability within the mind. I'll get to my point, but I just have to make an interesting side note here. Remember those studies showing how higher testosterone levels that male babies are exposed to in the womb increases their capacity for the physical sciences? The above puts a new spin on that. 

If there is a spectrum of mathematical ability within a single individual, wouldn't it be reasonable to argue that other spectrums of innate mathematical ability exist? For example, we know there is one between men and women and that it's a result of the selective strategy.

To me, it makes sense that environmental factors would play a role in innate mathematical capability across races and sub-groups within races.

How this would affect IQ tests, haha fun times.

I'm not saying that the divide is impassable from an educational and functional perspective because I do think that even the most complicated math can be broken down and understood through repetition/work. Just like all other physical sciences. 

Yes, I class math as one of the physical sciences