Insulting atheists for a change.

https://thenextweb.com/insights/2019/11/15/study-there-may-be-no-such-thing-as-objective-reality/

A wonderfully simple article that talks about the disconnect between cause and effect and the nature of the universe.

Finishes off nicely by showing that while two observers may view the same event, with different results, neither experience is false.

It's seems that the deeper one goes the more one finds evidence for the subjective nature of reality.

In my mind, this makes a strong argument for belief systems. Whether they are religious or non-religious.

The bonus for religious people is that their belief in an afterlife might be the exact force that brings it into existence.

Yes it's flawed but what a great idea.

Also, that word "faith", just never loses traction. If anything, it seems more relevant now that ever.

Question is, how were "primitive" scribes so on point all those thousands of years ago?

https://youtube.com/watch?v=8ORLN_KwAgs

So interesting.

Those that are familiar with the double slit experiment will appreciate the quantum eraser experiment as shown here.

And again, it seems to lead towards information flowing from a single location,source and moment at which all particles, including those that we are made from, were entangled. 

Faith means more and more to Theists everyday as more of the world is proven to be natural not supernatural. Face it, it is really all you have left to defend your nonsense

"Face it, it is really all you have left to defend your nonsense."

What nonsense?

The bible for a start , starts with nonsense ends with nonsense and lots of silly nonsense fill the bits in between.

So honoured to be credited with authorship of the most influential book in history.

Unfortunately I can't in good conscience take said credit. 

Sader, it was Jews in the desert wot wrote it mate.

Again, what nonsense?

I didn't credit you, I was referring to Theists having to rely on faith to believe nonsense.

Start with Genesis and go from there, also look out for the little liar about not getting knocked up behind the stables or the 900 year old drunk with the incestuous family that built a boat to cart some animals around for a year (and leads to them believing in warp speed evolution too)

Don't forget this supposed god making his followers wander in the desert for 40 years when it was at most a 2 week walk (told you these desert herders where uneducated gimps, how hard is it to follow a coast line FFS)

Not sure if its the old or new testament but also don't forget the zombie apocalypse where they all crawled out of their graves and went into town for a knees up.

Slavery is moral is another load of cobblers but at least we know slavery is a fact which is more than most of the cobblers in there.

Sun orbits the earth, the stars can fall out of the sky, like a sun colliding with earth would destroy earth, the firmament??? still can't get my mind around exactly what that is but its full of water, earths got a dome over it holding the water out (How do NASA get their space craft through the dome and then the water, they don't look like submarines to me. Surely we would have drowned the first time they knocked a hole in it)

Seriously this shit is so fucked up its beyond belief that people swallow it, which reminds me of the guy that spent 3 days in a fuckin fish, how did he breath for 3 minutes let alone 3 days.

Like I said complete and utter nonsense .

"Like I said complete and utter nonsense."

Like order from chaos, but you have no problem swallowing that. There are no such things as absolutely truths...POV and perspective changes everything. 

To each his own Sader. 

Nothing in the bible is any stranger than quantum physics.

Yes but I am sure it is based on some known scientific facts, something the bible cant claim

The Bible doesn't claim to be a scientific textbook.

I wonder why that is?

Could it be because it was written by uneducated desert herders that didn't know any scientific facts, no evidence of some all powerful being having his hand in writing this drivel is there.

Yes, you and many others believe the bible to be BS. 

Great. 

At least ad a little something for us to discuss man. Even something anecdotal will do.

Well I heard something interesting recently.

Guy was saying that he feels though God is a type of frequency that one tunes in to when you live a good and disciplined life.

Sure, you don't need God to be good. 

The idea of elevating ones consciousness through willful acts isn't a new concept either though.

"Gave you a whole list of things to discuss from the bible, no comment because you cannot defend these statements as fact, or is faith all you have got?"

Sader,  I'm not religious man.

Do you want to discuss whether Noah could fit all the animals on his boat?

No thanks.

Our heritage is the ancient Greeks and Romans, not the desert herders in the Middle East that sacrifice each other- and think it is under the instructions of God. 

Look at the Middle East today, it still one of the most primitive places in the world. No way they could invent anything. Even much of the mining of oil is done by the West. 

Many of the morals in the Bible are questionable, so anybody that takes this as verbatim either literal or figurative is going to be confused. No point teaching kids this BS. 

Yet the Western Civilization has been anchored in Christianity for more than a 1000 years. We've been moving away from Christianity for a few decades, and already the cracks are appearing...it's a good thing the Devil does not exist because if he did, we are really playing into his hand...

Shark,

The Arabs were doing well until they found Islam. 

From what I've read, they lead the human progress for a good long time.

Math, astronomy, the written word and agriculture. Not insignificant contributions. Wouldn't you say?

Shark, 

I don't know if religions are good or bad. They've certainly been used for nefarious purposes since forever, and continue to be. 

God and God's had always been a theme though. Whether that's because man's mind requires it or because we feel that there is something more, who knows?

Shark,

Did you watch the Quantum Eraser video I posted above?

Apologies for the delayed response, I was away on holiday.....

Db...…….I can clearly see how you are, or were, trying to spin this whole debate into a direction about Plum only posting "rhetorical facts" on this topic...… and that he was discussing both sides.....

You are trying to spin this anyway you can dude...…… but here is exactly what Plum posted...… and he posted this...….as a fellow "non-believer, or atheist"....which he makes extremely clear in his post.....and if you can take your blinkers off for a moment...… look at this from a fellow "non believer's" perspective

I'm saying that as a non-believer, or atheist, your affection is a direct result of evolution and largely predicable in terms of relatedness. This is a fact, it's been shown over and over in countless species, including humans

Now as a fellow non-believer / atheist like Plum is, which I think everyone knows I am by now, I disagreed with this, and I said that Plum must not state this as facts...… to which you directly argued back to me, that Plum did not do that at all...….. well fuck me dude, what exactly did Plum just post right here above?...…..as a fellow non believer like me?.... "I'm saying that as a non-believer, or atheist"........This is a fact"?

So, what I was saying was …..post your own thoughts..... no probs..... but don't posts "facts" as a non believer, or atheist because that would then include me as a fellow non believer, or atheist in those facts..... and I in fact don't believe, like Plum does.... that they are factual at all...…...so I say again...…. try your very best to deny that any facts were posted by Plum, or twist and turn it anyway that you want to, to suit your own agenda, but the "fact" is, Plum did exactly what I accused him of, and you both very blatantly tried to smoke screen the whole truth with taking the discussion into another direction...…

Fucking hell, DA.

Do you remember every last phrase you post here? I don't.

The fact you try to make it out like it's some huge lie done for nefarious purposes is only indicative of how you are trying to avoid your own question.

Tell me, you tit, me saying nothing was posted as fact, while further up...way back in the conversation, I post a statement which is actually a fact, or I believe to be factual...how the hell does that detract from anything?

I talk from memory. I don't copy and past reams and reams of BS. 

And now, because of a simple mistake I'm suddenly a brazen liar intent on dreceiving you.

The absolute stupidness of it all is that my giant unforgivable lie amounts nothing. It didn't strengthen or further any standing in the discussion nor were any pertinent ideas resting on it.

Grow the fuck up man.

As i said, it's a stupid little technicality that you blew completely out of proportion. You used it as an excuse to launch a volley of insults and ultimately your golden ticket out of a conversation where you almost immediately found yourself out of your depth.

You claim my true colors are showing? You're so very disappointed blah blah blah

In reality, it's you that showed your petty and cowardly nature.

And it's you that doesn't deserve my time.

Now fuck off and leave the complicated discussions to the adults.

"Apologies for the delayed response, I was away on holiday.....

Db...…….I can clearly see how you are, or were, trying to spin this whole debate into a direction about Plum only posting "rhetorical facts" on this topic...… and that he was discussing both sides.....

You are trying to spin this anyway you can dude...…… but here is exactly what Plum posted...… and he posted this...….as a fellow "non-believer, or atheist"....which he makes extremely clear in his post.....and if you can take your blinkers off for a moment...… look at this from a fellow "non believer's" perspective

I'm not "spinning" anything, I gave an opinion about how I understood the idea behind the thread. From where I'm standing, you're the one trying to spin it into a non intended direction, because you don't like the direction of Plum's reasoning. I'm agreeing with Plum's reasoning and that's why I reject the secular view. I know I have bias and I accept that it will slant my opinion...but that's true for everybody.

I'm saying that as a non-believer, or atheist, your affection is a direct result of evolution and largely predicable in terms of relatedness. This is a fact, it's been shown over and over in countless species, including humans

Now as a fellow non-believer / atheist like Plum is, which I think everyone knows I am by now, I disagreed with this, and I said that Plum must not state this as facts...… to which you directly argued back to me, that Plum did not do that at all...….. well fuck me dude, what exactly did Plum just post right here above?...…..as a fellow non believer like me?.... "I'm saying that as a non-believer, or atheist"........This is a fact"?

Then explain to us why it is not fact, instead of attacking him for supposedly demeaning your feelings for your kids. He said elsewhere that he's open to a "third" argument. If it is not fact and you don't agree, explain what exactly is wrong with the argument. You haven't you attacked the messenger and refused to counter the argument.

So, what I was saying was …..post your own thoughts..... no probs..... but don't posts "facts" as a non believer, or atheist because that would then include me as a fellow non believer, or atheist in those facts..... and I in fact don't believe, like Plum does.... that they are factual at all...…...so I say again...…. try your very best to deny that any facts were posted by Plum, or twist and turn it anyway that you want to, to suit your own agenda, but the "fact" is, Plum did exactly what I accused him of, and you both very blatantly tried to smoke screen the whole truth with taking the discussion into another direction...…

So tell us why it's not facts. Tell us what the 3rd option is, Explain the scientific reason for these emotions are. Tell us how his "facts" are not "facts" but opinions. Don't take your ball and go home.

 It looks like (to me anyway) you are attacking his views because you don't like them, but you don't really have a reason for why it's wrong or an alternative.

Stop focusing on "side details" as an excuse to avoid getting into the crux of the discussion. Try more hypothetical reasoning if you mus....or continue in the same vein...it's no skin off my back.

To me you have an odd way of going about things, but that's probably just me.

Dread,

Like I said earlier. It's just a question that he asks and normally nobody adequately responds so he tends to come out as the perceived "winner".

The moment I began trying talk about it and to ask follow-up questions he immediately bailed. 

He hit his intellectual ceiling, tried to save face and did his best to drag it into name calling.

The guy actually thinks he's fooling everyone. That alone tells you all you need to know.

He won't continue, he can't.

Just shame that he had to reveal what a petty coward he is in the process.

"Grow the fuck up man"

LMAO

Let's put this into perspective shall we

Plum.... you start having issues with CC.... your self esteem takes a huge knock, your big ego gets heavily bruised......so what happens..... you deflect, and you throw money into the equation.

Plum.... you start having issues with me.... your self esteem takes a huge knock, your big ego gets heavily bruised...….and what happens.... you deflect, and you throw money into the equation

In life, you cannot just throw money at your problems and hope that they go away Plum, because as you can see, we are both still here....

And you want to tell me to grow the fuck up..... LMFAO.... is that how big ego Plum resolves life's issues...… handing out money.... shame dude

You then try really hard to portray yourself to be far more well read than me, but when you ultimately get so frustrated with a poster like CC, all you can resort to, is to call him "a bunch of poes" ……. I already told you dude, Hustler magazine does not constitute normal reading material.... LMAO

Plum... you constantly try incredibly hard on this forum, to be this up front and fully confident and charismatic guy, but my take on you has taken a dramatic turn, since I started reading some previous posts which I was not aware of before.

You are one hell of a insecure dude, because you know... and I know....."For a Fact"..... that everyone on here knows, that offering to put any money up at all, to defend some random and anonymous sexual accusation, is exactly what any insecure 5 year old would do, any day of the week, including Sundays...… so for a fully grown "confident" and "secure" man to do just this... is laughable.... .it is fucking hilarious

Intelligent, you may be...... but secure and confident with yourself and having a good deal of self esteem..... no fucking ways dude..... your posts scream insecurity.

As for your repeated questions about me being poor, let me just say this Plum...… you won't ever hold a candle to me, regarding finances.... I assure you.....but I will let you continue to believe that you do..... because I know "For a Fact".... that it will make you feel so much better about yourself, especially with the weekend coming up and with the size and temperament of your ego, it just really works for me dude, and it will be my good deed for the day.... and above all else Plum.... if you are happy,....then so am I bro  

As for the R10 000 not being a lot of money...… my two soup kitchen charities that I donate non perishable foods to, would certainly beg to differ with you..... but then again, it's that ego of yours again Plum...… it just keeps on getting in the way of you thinking and posting something decent Plum...……..it's always Plum is better than the others..... blah blah blah

"normally nobody adequately responds"

Ahhhhhh the notorious Plum ego surfaces yet again......it's Plum..... Plum is one of the abnormal ones...….one of the more intelligent people on this forum or in this world...….. it's really only Plum who can adequately respond to my questions on this forum, because nobody else has previously had the mental ability or capacity to do so, till today...… because today, Plum, the special one....the only poster on here who reads a lot, LOL..... has decided to reply to DA, like nobody has previously been capable of doing before now......we all see the trend Plum..... the regular bold statements.... the constant brags..... the massive... huge ego.... I think it is absolutely hilarious.... you have provided this entire board with all your tells......it's really no genuine surprise or secret.....since it comes from a massively insecure guy called Plum

Seriously though, s heeesh Plum...… how do you get in your front door every night dude..... with that fucking massive head...… …. it's a genuine question...

Plum, one last thing bro..... please don't flatter yourself...….I have never ever backed away from any debate, argument or discussion on this forum.... not once.... ever...….and I wont here either.

The truth is, I just don't want to discuss this issue with you... with Plum......because to be honest with you...… which I believe you deserve......, I just don't see you as a pleasant or decent chap at all anymore.....and that is my very honest take on this...…use it, don't use it...….I have recently seen comments and posts that have made me react differently towards you.... and your opinion doesn't stand for much anymore, like it did in the past... which I openly admitted before, I did respect your opinion...…. so take that from where it comes dude, I quite frankly don't give a flying fuck.... but I do aim to please.... and I live to give.....so by all means...... continue to believe that I am ducking some question.... I'm not..... I am avoiding you

"Just a shame that you had to reveal what a shallow, conceited and egotistical individual you are in the process" 

"Fixed"

"Then explain to us why it is not fact"

"So tell us why it's not facts"

Ok, Db.... just to be very clear here, are you also agreeing with Plum, that these are indeed facts...… and that I must provide information to counter that they are in fact not factual?

Just give me your take on this so that there is more clarity from your point of view

Well ofcourse, as a Christian I don't agree that it's fact. I believe in a conscience, destiny and the spiritual realm...a higher purpose...the other side of the argument.

What, in your opinion, is the purely biological/naturalistic explanation for the feeling of love, if it's not just a chemical reaction in the brain and nervous system....is there a third option?

"Well of course, as a Christian I don't agree that it's fact. I believe in a conscience, destiny and the spiritual realm...a higher purpose...the other side of the argument."

You are not answering my question Db.... what does conscious, destiny and spiritual realm have to do with loving somebody..... or even the act.... or the feeling of love?

You don't need to be spiritual to love something...… you also don't need to believe in destiny..... and you don't even need to believe in a higher purpose, or believe in any spiritual realm....or even have faith in something or any being...……...not one single part of those points, will determine if you are capable of loving someone or something...nor are any one of them a pre-requisite to you being able to love...… or am I wrong?

I am asking if you believe in what was originally posted on here, to which I have openly disagreed and openly challenged as a non believer, as not being factual, as it was stated here originally.... so... yes or no..... is your love for your wife, children, friends.... purely because of evolution?

The statement that was made, which I don't agree with at all, is that your love and affection is due to evolution...… in other words, loving someone else, is purely down to evolution

Do you agree with this Db..?

"Here it is verbatim"

"your affection is a direct result of evolution"

I will gladly post my thoughts on this to you, I just want more insight into what you believe regarding this statement that was made first, because your post does not answer my question or give me more insight into what you yourself believe, because that is what I disputed.... nothing about higher beings, spiritual realms, consciousness or destiny

No I don't believe it. 

"You don't need to be spiritual to love something...… you also don't need to believe in destiny..... and you don't even need to believe in a higher purpose, or believe in any spiritual realm....or even have faith in something or any being..."

Agreed, but from my POV, God is Love and all Love and what is Good are derived from Him, regardless of what you believe. There is a Spiritual side to human existence regardless of what you believe.  Some people believe the Earth is flat, but satellites work and benefit them regardless of their belief.

Ja Ja, DA

You know exactly what your strategy  is. 

Like I said, grow a pair.

"Ja Ja, DA

You know exactly what your strategy  is. 

Like I said, grow a pair"

 "I quite frankly don't give a flying fuck"

Plum, just sit back and let the adults talk

"Agreed, but from my POV, God is Love and all Love and what is Good are derived from Him, regardless of what you believe. There is a Spiritual side to human existence regardless of what you believe.  Some people believe the Earth is flat, but satellites work and benefit them regardless of their belief."

Db, are you specifically saying that our species is not capable of loving something or anything, unless they believe in God, "because all love and what is good is derived from him"...……... because reading your statement above, it certainly does seems so.

Would I be correct in saying that from what you posted above, your opinion on this issue would be that love does not come from evolution, as was originally posted..... but from God only?

I am asking because I don't agree with your statement above and I will post why , if that is in fact what you are saying..... your answers are not exactly very clear

Haha hahahahaha.

"Religious people derive love from the metaphysical." This was said way at the top of the thread. A ccording to christians, everything, including love, comes from God. How the hell should Draad clarify this? It's just what it is. 

Nevertheless, Draad says...

"Agreed, but from my POV, God is Love and all Love and what is Good are derived from Him, regardless of what you believe."

And DA's response...

"Db, are you specifically saying that our species is not capable of loving something or anything, unless they believe in God, "because all love and what is good is derived from him"...……... because reading your statement above, it certainly does seems so."

Two choices here. You either don't understand plain language or you're intentionally conflating his words.

He even gives you the satellite example to clarify. But you still fucked it up.

Shall I draw some pictures to help you understand what Draad is saying?

This is some funny shit.

Nee wat ou pel. Daai tor moer seker daagliks van sy proppie af.

Love toward a child is installed in most parents to ensure the child survives. It's an instinct and without it man would have died off shortly after Adam and Eve showed up.

Does a deer love it's off spring ... or is it pure instinct to protect the future of it's species? Does it even know what it's doing?

The clever people say that a male Lion kills off the offspring of the previous pride leader so that it can promote it's own bloodline. That is a crock of shit. It could care less about it's own bloodline. The lioness comes into season once it's cubs are killed ... in other words ... the male lion just wants a bit of poenda.

Love and instinct are linked and you don't have to be a spiritual person to partake of it.

"Love and instinct are linked and you don't have to be a spiritual person to partake of it."

Fully agree with you CC

This philosophy that love is evolutionary is rubbish..... or that "God is Love and all Love and what is Good are derived from Him"

I am also a non believer, so how does 'Regardless of what you believe" come into it Db?.... because I don't believe in God, so how can I derive anything from him then "regardless of what I believe"...… if all Love and good comes directly from God, but I don't even believe in him to begin with..... unless of course, you are now saying that because I don't believe in God, then I am not ever capable of feeling or expressing love..?

Is that so Db?

If the act or the feeling of love is evolutionary, then so is hate..... but hate is taught.... it is not evolutionary..... you are conditioned to hate...…. you are brought up to hate....... you are brought up to be racist...…. that is not evolution dictating to you what you should be …. or how you should think or behave every day...….evolution has zero to do with that...….it is your family..... your friends..... society

Love comes from within oneself...… with a child for instance....you have created something from your very being.....your instinct to love and protect that being from any hardship or harm is not because of evolution...…. animals constantly display it...…. humans always display it...… I doubt animals know of any higher or superior being, yet those same animals will give up their lives for their newborns..... sacrificing themselves to predators...… not just because of instinct..... but out of love for their offspring..... It's like a father diving over his children to protect them from harm.... he is not trying to protect his bloodline..... he is protecting his offspring from harm or death..... just like Corrie Sanders did for his daughter when he was shot in that restaurant robbery...… parents know exactly what I am referring to here...… and that is not evolution...… it is all out love  

Love is a connection.... you immediately know when it happens..... it blindsides you..... it makes you think differently..... it makes you act differently...…. if love was evolutionary, you would behave like that with most fellow humans.... but you don't...….. why...…. because you don't love everyone equally and if love were evolutionary, you would...…. love is a choice.

Put predator and prey together at birth..... they co-exist as if nothing were any different..... it has been shown over and over again..... because they were never conditioned to hunt...…. to kill......they live peacefully, even protecting each other..... because they know no different...….if that was evolutionary..... the predator would kill the "usual" prey, as soon as evolution kicked in...…. but it never does..... and why..... because the personal feeling of love gets in the way.....

Watch young children..... hugging each other in the playgrounds..... irrespective of race or religion and not remotely knowing the differences between them at all pertaining to skin colour….. physical features...…..religious beliefs..... the love and affection is there from the very beginning...….. and it is 100% genuine...…...it has not yet been soured or infected......because those innocent children have not yet been conditioned by surrounding influences like friends, family and society.....to know any different.... but as they get older, so do their opinions..... beliefs..... feelings of love or hate..... and that is dictated directly by their daily surroundings.....not by evolution

Plum, I have already clearly advised you that I don't appreciate your opinion, so excuse me if I don't respond to your childish responses..... so fuck off and let the real adults talk

"I am also a non believer, so how does 'Regardless of what you believe" come into it Db?.... because I don't believe in God, so how can I derive anything from him then "regardless of what I believe"...… if all Love and good comes directly from God, but I don't even believe in him to begin with..... unless of course, you are now saying that because I don't believe in God, then I am not ever capable of feeling or expressing love..?"

I see you still did not get the satellite example. And it's helping me understand what I was dealing with.

Here, let me clarify...

You = flat earther

God = the round earth

The love god created = Satelite

You don't believe in a god, like a flat earther doesn't believe in a globe earth. 

But god made love like a satellite makes GPS possible, so whether you believe in god or a globe earth does not matter because he made love and hence you feel it. Just like a flat earther uses GPS.

Got it now?