Insulting atheists for a change.

Here is a website."

Plumchum if you're too much of a . . . ummmm . . . moron to perform a simple function like linking a website then could you rather just copy and paste the website URL for us?

Thanks.

Plum, good points...for a non religious person, you surely don't close your mind to the "what ifs" and you are close to why I am a Christian. I want the Gospel to be  true. Not because I want to go to Heaven. I simply don't want to live in a world where anything evolved from chaos for no purpose at all...

Saffex call it a crutch...I call it purpose, destiny whatever...probably the same reason I loved Starwars and find Trekkies a bit bleh?

If there is no Higher Purpose, then all emotions are just chemistry and right and wrong are nothing more than pro or anti survival of the species mechanisms...I don't want to live in that universe. I love my Order and Purpose. 

DA

I hear what you are saying. Sure it's quite obvious that parents would make the ultimate sacrifice for their children.

Just how much you w hould sacrifice is directly related to degrees of relatedness, most of the time. In animals it's practically predictable down to a single didget percentage. 

When trying to use sacrifice as the proof of love you run into a problem though.

That being, people on hard drugs will sacrifice everything up to and including their lives to feel whatever it is the drug makes them feel.

In terms of my own nieces. Sure, I'd do my bit to save them. My sacrifice would be t be result of my personal feeling toward them individually overlayed on top my genetic relatedness to them. And as the degrees of relatedness dwindle toward extended family my level of sacrifice would probably decrease. That is, in the absence of any deep personal relationship.

Asking me if I would let them drown, isn't something I can answer because I'm not religious.

As it stands, there is no way that I would let them drown. And any voice in my head telling me to do so would be met with psychiatric help of my own volition. Even if it was just a random stranger and not a family member.

I'm not religious because i don't have faith. 

And that's the point. If I had faith, and believed God existed just like this phone in my hand exists. And if I believed 100% that he was commanding me to do something...well, considering who God is, I'd probably obey.

I mean, the guy that created the universe, time, rugby, etc

I think you'd obey too.

My deepest apologies. The URL doesn't always post the link properly first time and i never edit anything...but here it is...

https://www.logicalfallacies.org/

Come on Plum, stop being so precious. Surely you can see some humour in someone calling someone else a moron and then failing in a simple task that even a moron could manage.

Nice link. I'm clicking on some of those fallacies and reading the examples . . . they all sound like Baboon-ou so far . . . every one I've clicked on.

"I'm not religious and I can answer that question easily enough."

Yea, like I did. And I even spoke about a course of action that I'd take if I heard voices.

Your point?

"And that's the point. If I had faith, and believed God existed just like this phone in my hand exists. And if I believed 100% that he was commanding me to do something...well, considering who God is, I'd probably obey"

You see Plum, this here above from you, and your point about relatedness and sacrifice is exactly my point.

What religious people, just on this forum alone, would sacrifice their kids.... if  "that" voice came to them, and they had to make an immediate decision

I see the funny in it, Rooi.

I see you didn't see my sarcasm.

Ah yes, sarcasm - the appeal to ridicule fallacy!

Amazing how many of those fallacies we all employ . . . knowingly and unknowingly!

Whahaha

"What a lot of codswallop. If that’s part of your logic al fallacies then no thanks I prefer to be a stupid moron."

How convenient for you.

Rooi, 

Serious question.

Is the first time you've come across this?

Ja, I was debate team geek at school. 

Cloudy, for the love of God, stop showing everyone here what a plank you are. 

Fucking hell, man. 

Do you really think that i mean one would stand there, do an internal genetic test, wait for the results and then use them to decide?

Just stop.

You are actually just embarrassing yourself at this point.

Plum, to answer your serious question, no, it's not the first time I've seen descriptions of the different kinds of fallacies but this one is nice and concise.

I can believe you enjoyed debating. You are a very argumentative person.

"I can believe you enjoyed debating. You are a very argumentative person"

Do you know what I like more than making a point?

Listening to someone that knows what they're talking about making a point.

Mostly I argue because I hope to have my mind changed or to receive some new information.

From our interactions in the past, would you say this is halfway true? 

Awe, Cloudy

Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out. 

Thanks for coming and contributing exactly ZERO, man.

I have the same issue with Plum, Cloudy. He'll tell me I'm wrong or stupid or ignorant but that's because I seldom know what he's arguing about or what question he's actually asking.

"My question is, how do you or anyone else know that this love is actually the ceiling?"

Plum, I still don't really get your stance on this, and you asked me the question, which I tried to answer as best as I could

"So, how does anyone that insults a religious persons belief and love for their God know that they are not in fact challenging a love which is greater than the love a person feels for a child?"

"They don't know, is the simple answer"

You asked that question above and you said that they don't know, because love is "purely personal and subjective"...… but in fact..... I think we all know the answer to that already..... .and if we are all truly honest on this discussion.....it actually isn't even up for debate on which love is stronger here..

I do not mean to disrespect anyone with this example, but I need to make this example to illustrate my point

Take 100 Christians right now and put them each through the exact same test...….. where a voice requests them to sacrifice their child immediately...……. in order to have eternal life in heaven.....

It is a sincere test of one's faith..... the ultimate test......…. a test of one's total belief in Jesus Christ

Most of those Christians would fight that voice....try their utmost to understand where that voice is actually coming from..... and try and reason with that voice...….. and in the end...….. ultimately...…... probably do absolutely nothing to their child....

Now take 100 parents..... and put each one in a same situation where their direct response, to their child in imminent danger, would immediately result in that parent losing their life, to save their child's life…. and I guarantee you this Plum...……. easily more than 50% would not even give it a second thought...….they would not have to debate it...….. they would not have to question it...…. it would be impulsive...… inbred...….part of their DNA makeup...... and they would sacrifice themselves in a nanosecond...... for the life of their child...…

Therein lies the vast difference in loving your "God'...….. and loving your child

"Just how much you whould sacrifice is directly related to degrees of relatedness"

Again, I completely disagree with this statement

If you heard a voice saying kill that stranger in the street and you will be given eternity in heaven...…. would you trust your instincts enough to know that that was God speaking to you, and asking you to do that...... and that you would not go to jail, but heaven instead.

"And if I believed 100% that he was commanding me to do something...well, considering who God is, I'd probably obey."

Would you ask him to conclusively prove it was God first?...... because if you did, then you would have failed the faith test...… because you can't exactly ask him to make a horse just appear in front of you, to prove he is god, because that sorta defeats the whole test of faith to begin with......

Since God has challenged and tested so many people before, to test their faith in him, nobody can dispute this scenario from happening..... because according to the bible, it has happened many times over...….so.....

What stops the thousands of people, every day....who help and assist completely random strangers, and put their own lives at risk in doing so...……. some even dying...….all for the love of their fellow man...… but they would not kill another man...… to prove their love to this "God" that spoke to them and asked them to perform one act .

I don't agree at all Plum

As they always say

In theory, everything sounds possible and plausible...…. but when it comes to practical..... Nah.....n ot so much

Why do chrstians fight to hold onto this life as much as us non belivers.

Shouldn't you all be racing to get in since life is shit on this hell on earth as you portray it.

Think that proves that even the most religious are doubters.

If they truely believed they would refuse life saving operations and medicines, infact you would think they would be racing to every ebola outbreak to "help" their fellow man and speed up their departure date. Surely if god didn't want you yet he would just cure you

Sader, I can assure you right now...… that if any true and proper tests were given...…. even Beeno would fail miserably........… and I have no doubt that he knows that..... he just tries to talk a big game

Here is the big difference...

There are no wannabe atheists or non believers...… you either are one.... or you aren't....

There are however plenty of wannabe Christians all over the place...……… and it sometimes doesn't take much at all, to make them question what they really do believe.....

That is not said to insult anyone..... that is just a fact.... it is what it is

"CleanCutt is just a prick"

Shit man Sharky…… now CCs God will no longer acknowledge your existence.....

Even though he created you...…. 

DA

"Just how much you whould sacrifice is directly related to degrees of relatedness"

Again, I completely disagree with this statement

If you heard a voice saying kill that stranger in the street and you will be given eternity in heaven...…. would you trust your instincts enough to know that that was God speaking to you, and asking you to do that...... and that you would not go to jail, but heaven instead.

You need to decide. Are we biology or aren't we? You can't have the best of both worlds. Unfortunately, if we do come from chimps, then you have to accept that relatedness and sacrafice are directly corrolated. It's just how it is. Straight up Darwanism. You are more likely to sacrafice for something you are 50% rlated to than something you are 25% related to. Relatedness is the decider the vast majority of the time.

"And if I believed 100% that he was commanding me to do something...well, considering who God is, I'd probably obey."

Would you ask him to conclusively prove it was God first?...... because if you did, then you would have failed the faith test...… because you can't exactly ask him to make a horse just appear in front of you, to prove he is god, because that sorta defeats the whole test of faith to begin with......

If I have 100% faith then there is nothing to prove. I beleive it 100%. So, the answer is no, i would not need God to prove he exists.

And this is probably why i am not religious. Because i cannot, some earth shattering experience aside, see myself arriving to what i perceive to be a position of true faith.

Atheists place a burden of proof on christians. But when the burden of proof is placed on atheists as regards the love for their children, they are incapable. I raised my kids and gave them the best i could. I ran through fire for them and i would do it again. Well the religious person went to church every Sunday. The two are no different and speak to conviction rather than proving the concept. 

You can set up all the though experiments that you want but in the end, you cannot quantify love other than through chemical means, which is largely through degrees of relatedness/kinship.

And so the question remains, how do you know the offence(calling their love a fairytale) to religious people in not equal or greater?

Posters have demonstrated their love for their children to me in literally these terms...

I know because i feel it (Just like religion)

I know because i act (Just like religion)

I know because i know ( Faith/Religion)

There is no other like it (Just like religion)

Now, if theirs is pure fairytale...how are you so sure that yours is not?

Look, im not saying that one should not question religious people or call them out if you think they're talking shit. I'm asking philosophically how, on the basis of the unproven, one can be sure either way.

And it appears the answers, from both sides, rest on conviction alone.

"There are no wannabe atheists or non believers...… you either are one.... or you aren't...."

Well, i'm open to a cold physics based universe but also to a created one...and everything inbetween.

So i am 100% a believer, 100% a non-believer and 100% everything inbetween.

Not sure whether this makes your statement  correct or incorrect ...in my case hehe

I don't think that is how potential works, Shark.

A bit like that German guy's cat.

All possibilities are 100% possible. My belief, or lack thereof are in superposition.

Haha

I think I have worked out why your posts are confusing, you seem to be arguing all three perspectives as absolute truth, and not relative truth.  

No one has 100% believe in philosophical matters, other areas such as religion, afterlife etc. This is why it seems like you are trying to prove and disprove your own arguments at the same time, instead of weighing the merits of each. 

"So i am 100% a believer, 100% a non-believer and 100% everything inbetween"

Those beliefs are so far apart, there is no comparison

Any way that you look at that statement...…. you are saying that you are 100% Christian......and 100% atheist and 100% of whatever falls in between those two beliefs...…

You can have Christian traits and still not believe, but you can't say that you believe in God 100% but you also don't believe in God 100%, and then still believe in anything else 100% that falls amongst those two beliefs....and I am talking about God here, which is what I have been  specifically referring to in my posts...

Nah Plum..... there must be some sway to some side...… in other words you don't actually believe in anything..... until you receive some proof or life event to alter your beliefs to either one side

Yes, I'm open to ALL possibilities.

And, Shark, that's the position I argue from.

Quantum particles are in superposition, I'm made of those particles, so perhaps mine is the most logical position.  

"You need to decide. Are we biology or aren't we? You can't have the best of both worlds."

"Unfortunately, if we do come from chimps, then you have to accept that relatedness and sacrafice are directly corrolated. It's just how it is. Straight up Darwanism. You are more likely to sacrafice for something you are 50% rlated to than something you are 25% related to. Relatedness is the decider the vast majority of the time."

What both worlds are you referring to here...… you are not making any sense here Plum

I gave you a perfectly good example of how people behave, both in the bible, and how they would behave today....and it has absolutely zero to do with chimps or relatedness..... nothing at all.

What would it take, to convince you or any Christian....100%.... to kill a complete stranger, to get you into heaven..... would a normal..... sane...… intelligent person.... upon hearing voices in their head..... go and kill someone , because they truly believed that God tested them to do it...

How would you categorically know, without any shadow of a doubt, that it was in fact the lord Jesus Christ talking to you...….?

I am saying, that if you fully believe that it happened in the bible, then lets not write it off...… saying that it cannot happen again right now, in this day and age...… but again..... how would you know it was the lord talking to you or instructing you...…to test your ultimate faith in him?

Now Plum...… again, this has absolutely zero to do with chimps, biology, or relatedness.... its a straight forward question in my opinion

"If I have 100% faith then there is nothing to prove. I beleive it 100%. So, the answer is no, i would not need God to prove he exists."

I would disagree completely, but not with your views on this, with the general Christian views on that question

"Atheists place a burden of proof on christians. But when the burden of proof is placed on atheists as regards the love for their children, they are incapable"

Plum, I always enjoy discussing and debating with you, but even for you, this is just too confusing...and I am really trying to get you here

Comparing the belief of some possible entity or being as a Christian...….. to a parent and their very real emotional and physical love towards their children, makes no sense at all to me..... not even a little...… in fact it is not even in the same stratosphere of thinking.....

You still haven't properly answered my question on that specific topic, because you are mentioning chimps and relatedness which really does have nothing at all to do with how people react to certain events in their life.....

It's my belief.... not yours, or anyone else's, and I can live with it..... just like I live with every other person's belief..... until it is thrown down my throat like Beeno and CC do on here....

"Just how much you whould sacrifice is directly related to degrees of relatedness"

Again, I completely disagree with this statement.

If you disagree with sacrafice and the love that gives rise to it being down to degrees of relatedness in evolutionary terms, then the you are only left with methaphysical love/purpose as the origin of love/sacrafice.

Hence, you cant have the best of both worlds. Its one or the other, isnt it?

We are bilogy alone OR we are bilogy and spirit.

I'm saying that as a non-believer, or atheist, your affection is a direct result of evolution and largely predicable in terms of relatedness. This is a fact, it's been shown over and over in countless species, including humans. There is nothing new about it.

So, how exactly do you disagree with the relatedness scenario?

I fully agree about people being in the middle Cloudy.... 500%

There are a lot of uncertain people out there...…. and rightly so

I just don't see how you can be a 100% believer and also a 100% non-believer, and then also at the same time..... a 100% in between…..…. I won't ever get that logic